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Hetzner Price Adjustment

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Re: Hetzner Price Adjustment

#271

Post by KennyBlanken »

espadrine wrote: post #226
sveme wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one knows where to put the trash. That was the major reason for the phase-out, that no one knew how to handle that. I'm just the messenger, don't shoot me. And please do not come up with future inventions that will magically remove that issue, that does not help. Btw, it wasn't really a rush, it was started more than 30 years ago by not building new nuclear power plants. Many of the power plants are actually at th…

> No one knows where to put the trash They do, though. That is where the “trash” is. They have become so adept at it, they made a museum out of one facility[0]. Two misconceptions that benefit from being clarified: 1. There is very little waste for the amount of energy produced. If we only used nuclear, it would amount for 40 grams per person per year[1]. 2. The waste is not trash, it is extremely valuable. It was va…

You're talking about fuel, and we're talking about trash.

From refinement to the reactor and spent fuel processing, the nuclear power industry generates a huge amount of trash that is low-grade radioactive and thus cannot be just dumped in a landfill.

The nuclear industry has had over seventy years to get their act together regarding fuel recycling. They'd rather just dump it into pools on-site because it's cheapest and makes it Someone Else's Problem. It's the same attitude of the chemical industry from the 1950's: dump it in a hole and let someone else deal with it after you've long since left.

Here's an idea: let's spend the money on wind turbine blade, battery, and solar panel repurposing and recycling instead.

Re: Hetzner Price Adjustment

#272

Post by jbverschoor »

jaywalk wrote: post #66
jbverschoor wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ARM on desktop => ARM for development => ARM on servers => ARM on cloud. Apple's multi-billion contracts with AWS are ending this or next year, Apple has their own power efficient systems and will compete with AWS, as they have to maintain/increase growth.

> Apple has their own power efficient systems and will compete with AWS Are you saying Apple is going to roll out an AWS competitor to the public? I find that highly unlikely.

They used aws, gcp, azure.

The aws contract will end this or next year, I don’t recall.

They’re offering Xcode cloud build.

It’s only logical for them to also grab a piece of market share of a highly profitable / high margin market.

They’re doing the same with EV, AR, etc.

I am long apple

Re: Hetzner Price Adjustment

#273

Post by jmbwell »

riskable wrote: post #131
sremani wrote: post #127

If I am running Hetzner, I will be looking at an aggressive North American expansion. The energy cost gap between US and Europe are going to get bigger.

> The energy cost gap between US and Europe are going to get bigger. Only briefly. The fracking boom is basically over: https://www.technologyreview.com/2021/07/01/1027822/fracking... We're presently running a good portion of our heating and electricity via the cheap gas that the fracking boom unlocked but that's going to taper off pretty quickly over the next decade. Because fracking was never a long-term solution.…

Fracking changed the market but the Western Hemisphere is not dependent on it. There is enough oil and gas in the North and South American continents to last hundreds of years by all projections.

What’s likely to happen is the global market will split into three regional markets: the Americas, Europe and Africa, and Russia and Asia. The US will recalibrate for more local feedstocks and very much continue business as usual. The other markets will realign producing regions and consuming regions along political lines and eventually get back to business as usual. The difference will be the prices in each region, which will go back to pre-globalization independent activity.

Other than that, yes, renewables and other sources will see heavy investment, but they depend on raw materials that come primarily from unstable (or newly unstable) political regions. I’d say it very much remains to be seen how this affects prices between renewables and petroleum.

What’s clear is that we are all heading into an “all of the above” energy policy regime that will no longer enjoy the perks and stability afforded by the global market.

Re: Hetzner Price Adjustment

#274

Post by forty »

atq2119 wrote: post #261
highwaylights wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The rush out of nuclear fission power still shocks me. It's a miracle fuel. It really is wonderful. It solves climate change almost by itself, or it would have, had Chernobyl and Fukushima not been reported so irresponsibly.

Meanwhile France, a famously pro-nuclear country, has to shut down many of its nuclear power plants in summer because they can't cool them adequately. (Yes, I'm sure issues can be fixed. Point is, nuclear has an awful lot of practical problems for supposedly being miraculous.)

Yeah, I'm French and I'm a bit sad that people seems to deal with nuclear energy as if it was some kind a religious thing. Both sides, anti nuclear who seem to ignore the great benefits it can bring and the pro nuclear who can't seem to see how it sucks (not because it's dangerous or not green, but because it's expensive and doesn't work half of the time because of maintenance or heat - oh and also because we cannot build new reactor in reasonable time and budget anymore )

Re: Hetzner Price Adjustment

#275

Post by npteljes »

iforgotpassword wrote: post #172
rr888 wrote: post #47

Its fascinating that electricity is really the biggest cost of computing. I put a server in my house which was supposed to save money, but actually the electricity cost was something I hadn't thought of and really adds up. esp when the AC has to run to remove the extra heat. So much old hardware out there but its going to get junked as new hw is more efficient.

Don't use a "server" server, unless you really need that. Use a desktop from a few years ago, from some oem who advertises power efficiency. Stuff it full of hdds and ram. I've made very good experiences with Fujitsu. The power consumption figures they publish in their energy consumption white papers has been matching my measurements very well, so you can check ebay for used machines that match your performance/price…

Same conclusion here. Initially I used an old notebook with USB cases for full-size HDDs, nowadays it'n an older desktop PC in a midi tower, with some extra memory and HDDs. Idle power is <20W, which is most of the time. I really wanted a proper server for the cool factor, but it's just so expensive to maintain.

Re: Hetzner Price Adjustment

#276

Post by Scoundreller »

delroth wrote: post #232
collegeburner wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

one of the upsides to living in texas, lots of cheap wind power lol. even with more expensive electricity i can still run old hardware for cheap. means less e waste also.

https://app.electricitymaps.com/zone/US-TEX-ERCO Your cheap TX electricity is, unsurprisingly, mostly gas. And if you look at data from 12h ago it was more coal than wind.

Yearly averages are probably the most sensible to look at. Wind is at 20% which is still nothing to sneeze at:

> According to ERCOT, nearly half of Texas’ electricity was generated by natural gas-fired power plants in 2019. Coal-fired plants and wind power each generated about 20 percent, while the state’s two nuclear power plants — the South Texas Project near Bay City and Comanche Peak near Glen Rose — supplied a total of 11 percent. Solar, hydroelectric and biomass resources provided most of the remainder

https://comptroller.texas.gov/economy/fiscal-notes/2020/augu...

Re: Hetzner Price Adjustment

#277

Post by merb »

joss82 wrote: post #176
Symbiote wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's possible to pay extra for only renewable electricity.

No you can't (unless you do it yourself but the price is extremely high if you want uninterrupted power). What happens is: your provider purchase "green energy certificates" which means that some green electricity was generated on a sunny and/or windy day. When it's night and the wind don't blow, you use coal and gas as everyone else. No storage is cheap enough to store solar and wind energy on day-to-day scale, let…

> No you can't (unless you do it yourself but the price is extremely high if you want uninterrupted power). What happens is: your provider purchase "green energy certificates" which means that some green electricity was generated on a sunny and/or windy day. When it's night and the wind don't blow, you use coal and gas as everyone else.

that is bullshit. also besides that germany is small compared to other countries and dense, there is no time of the day where its nowhere windy nor sunny. so at the moment there is just no need to purchase green energy certificates for the bigger providers, they can either buy power from other providers or they can produce their green power. and also it does not matter, since if you need 3kW and they can't deliver green power at the moment they will deliver more green power later, thats how it usually works.

> No storage is cheap enough to store solar and wind energy on day-to-day scale, let alone seasonally.

also bullshit. it has nothing to do with cost, more with there is no storage for everybody.

most providers that offer 100% green power actually do generate the amount of power in green that you use (that is their premise) of course they can't create different power lines, thus it's a mix.

(in germany it's forbidden to mark your product as "100% green power" if you buy certificates, of course you can write it some where but if your contract states it, it would be illegal, but there is a difference between contract and marketing, of course... Energiewirtschaftsgesetz - EnWG §42)

Re: Hetzner Price Adjustment

#278

Post by manfre »

happyopossum wrote: post #227
mynameisvlad wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My R730 averages at around 100-200W with two 12-core CPUs, 128GB RAM and 8 12-14TB drives. Servers are more efficient than people give them credit for. It's close to a gaming PC in electricity usage. Certainly not 60W (or what people can get with NUCs and RPi clusters) but for the power I get, it's very much worth it.

If we average that out to 150W, that'd be 1250-1300Kwh/yr. Current Bay Area electric prices means that'd cost in excess of $500/yr to run. I'd say that servers are not more efficient than people are giving them credit for...

Servers are more efficient when fully utilized. A commercial grade server in a homelab is more likely to idle all the time, making it very energy wasteful. Servers need to be right-sized, instead of "more is better".

Re: Hetzner Price Adjustment

#279

Post by philjohn »

mynameisvlad wrote: post #141
philjohn wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is why for my home server I didn't get second hand servers but built the following in a 2U case that fits in my network closet: Asrock Rack c246 WSI (Mini ITX workstation board) 32GB DDR4 ECC Udimms (16GB x2) Core i3 9100T (25w, low power 4 core part, supports ECC, and quicksync) 6 IronWolf 4TB NAS drives The 6 drives are in RaidZ2 so give 16TB usable space, and at full pelt the max power consumption is 60W for…

My R730 averages at around 100-200W with two 12-core CPUs, 128GB RAM and 8 12-14TB drives. Servers are more efficient than people give them credit for. It's close to a gaming PC in electricity usage. Certainly not 60W (or what people can get with NUCs and RPi clusters) but for the power I get, it's very much worth it.

What's it like at idle though?

Since it's a home server, when it's not receiving backups from computers in the house, or streaming media via Plex it's sitting there at < 15w, which is low enough not to worry about.

Re: Hetzner Price Adjustment

#280

Post by NorwegianDude »

bungle wrote: post #134
ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #9

Germany € 0.29/kWh € 0.45/kWh Finland € 0.12/kWh € 0.22/kWh Damn, why is electricity in Germany over twice as expensive as in Finland? I doubt Germans have twice the purchasing power as Finns.

This picture shows you this crazyness: https://lampopumput.info/foorumi/attachments/1660195161813-p... In north Norway the electricity costs: 0.75 c/kWh In south Norway the electricity costs: 307.00 c/kWh In Latvia it costs: 1,240.00 c/kWh It is like that every day everywhere in Europe. In Finland the transfer line to Estonia means a lot to our local prices. If we cannot get that line fully utilised (in normal non-wi…

It's not that the energy is made in in the northern parts of Norway. Most energy is from the south west of Norway, but the southern parts of Norway has connections to other parts of Europe and is affected by the energy crisis in Europe.

But the part about capacity internally is true, so the average price in northern Norway today is 0.00061 EUR/kWh(yes, you read that correctly) while it's 0.35 EUR/kWh in the south. That's 574 times as expensive!

Norway is making a ton of money on energy export now.

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