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The Case for Degrowth

lrb.co.uk

291–300 of 332 posts

Re: The Case for Degrowth

#291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Soon their pension and other systems in place to support their aging population will not be able to be supported by those working. Where will the money come from? There needs to be someone there to work. The labor force has to come from somewhere. There are a lot of immigrants looking for jobs. Billions.

So Japan needs more people because their pension system is unsustainable. And when all the immigrants who came in get old, Japan will need even more immigration to make up for the immigration they had before, and all the new pensioners. This is not sustainable. This is a Ponzi scheme. Continually kicking the can down the road.

this is how every country has functioned for many, many years. acting like it is something ridiculous is stupid.

Re: The Case for Degrowth

#292
post #118

The problem with ideas like this is that it takes the ladder away from middle class and the poor. Both need growth in order to improve their conditions, and their place in society exists only because they can produce growth. Without it the power of the wealthy over them would become a weight pressing down with such force that it would intolerable.

>Both need growth in order to improve their conditions, and their place in society exists only because they can produce growth. Why is that? It is OK to take from the very rich to help the very poor. All the stories I have read say that the general wealth is increasing but distribution getting more skewed. So I do not think endless growth is the answer to maintaining the middle class

Well of course it is getting more skewed. A lot of industries have not actually become more productive. Industries where making the first copy is very difficult, and subsequent copies are basically free, be it software, books, movies, TV. Economies of scale, opening to new markets means those returns are higher than ever. Compare that to a janitor pushing a broom. How has he become more efficient in the last 50 years. And a lot of industries seem to have had negative productivity growth, the ratio of administrators to professors in college is going in the wrong direction

Re: The Case for Degrowth

#293

Degrowth is a euphemism for recession. That's literally what it is: receding economic activity. Degrowth proponents are among the most counterproductive advocates of climate policy, and are a huge source of ammunition for a opponents that try to claim that climate action is just anti-capitalism in disguise. Increases energy usage is not necessarily necessary for increased economic growth. Higher efficiency and less e…

> Increased energy usage is not necessarily necessary for increased economic growth I disagree with this - economic growth has almost always perfectly aligned with increased energy use, however this is not a bad thing. The history of the human race has been about moving from less dense sources of energy to higher dense ones. From wood, to charcoal, to coal, to oil, to gas, to nuclear fission, to nuclear fusion. Abund…

Economic growth has been aligned with labor saving. Effiency. So instead of carrying items by hand long distances, we get beasts of burden, eventually machines take over the job in more and more efficient ways. Self driving trucks delivering products massively increase productivity, but does not consume that much more electricity.

Re: The Case for Degrowth

#294
post #82

> by slowly and reluctantly altering the traditional society, like the Chinese?’ No need to have some kind of "cultural revolution"? >Endless growth – green or not These arguments are all the same. They take the current rate of growth, plug in a time period longer than has elapsed since the death of vitalism as a theory of life (an idea which, today, is laughable to consider), and conclude that we need to stop growin…

Here's your answer: because if we continue on our current trajectory, in a mere 30-50 years, we will be experiencing significant effects of societal collapse due to climate change that make the current societal effects of ecological collapse we're experiencing (breakdown of supply chains, erosion of institutions, loss of biodiversity, record high global temperatures, etc. ) seem like "the good old days." I'm talking…

Citation needed

Re: The Case for Degrowth

#295

The problem with ideas like this is that it takes the ladder away from middle class and the poor. Both need growth in order to improve their conditions, and their place in society exists only because they can produce growth. Without it the power of the wealthy over them would become a weight pressing down with such force that it would intolerable.

The conditions of the middle-class are actually too luxurious. Everybody in the world can't have a suburban lawn. What the middle-class (and the poor) don't have is security . They live in a state of fear that the entire bottom will drop out of their lives if they get fired, or have a heart attack, or any of a million things. Supplying security to people is actually cheaper that what we do now, just as socialized hea…

Yes, you're completely right.

However, I believe that their lack of security is due to their lack of power, and that their lack of power is due to their lack of wealth, their loans and that they do not own the companies in which they work.

Consequently I see wealth and power as effectively the same and become moderately unhappy when I see policies that will in any way reduce the wealth or power of ordinary people.

So, while I used the word 'conditions' I actually meant their state of subjugation.

Re: The Case for Degrowth

#296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Free market health care is far cheaper than socialized health care.

How would you know? We have examples of good socialised health care and terrible everything else.

Health care expenses tracked inflation until the late 1960s, when it started dramatically outpacing inflation. The 1960s saw a massive influx of the government into health care. The pace of medical cost increases hasn't slowed down since. Every new government intervention makes it worse.

Re: The Case for Degrowth

#297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Growth or degrowth are not national policies but individual ones. You cannot prevent someone with growth mindset from doing actions leading to growth. And at the same time, nobody is preventing people with degrowth mindset to practice what they preach.

> Growth or degrowth are not national policies but individual ones Degrowth as used in the OP article is about macro level policy. For example solar panel subsidies, taxing coal and investments in public transportation. Individual actions performed in the name of "growth mindset" (whatever that means) can like any other actions be stopped, and likely will be stopped if they cause harm to others.

Can you name any country successful in stopping people with a mindset that they want to grow, mainly financially, or into power?

In capitalism, these are entrepreneurs. In democracy, these are politicians. In autocracy, these are dictators, army generals. In theocracy, these are pharaos, etc. In nature, these are alpha wolves.

Even people proposing degrowth, if they're going to achieve their goal, will have to be power hungry, alpha wolves (no matter how they will market themselves), not that different from people I describe. And they will have to fight constantly. There is no way how to stop need for getting better, getting more, competing, winning...

Re: The Case for Degrowth

#298
post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Debt is a social construct and ultimately a notional and notational reality, not a real one. Real wealth is not financial but physical --- "the annual produce and labour of the nation" in Adam Smith's formulation (and hence a flow rather than a stock as many commentators have noted). Debt and credit reflect claims on that wealth, but not the wealth itself. Disrupting the claim-making system does have profund effects…

>debt is a social construct As opposed to what? A carbon based life form? A monster truck? Yes literally every thing that humans interact with that isn't constructed of atoms is a social construct. Contracts, agreements, trades, transactions. Every single concept in finance and economics. This isn't a profound statement

Contrast with, say, physical or natural phenomena: the size of the Earth, solar insolation, the prevalence of various chemical elements within the Earth's crust, their organisation (or lack) into ores, their cycling through the biosphere, net primary productivity, and the like.

A debt, by contrast, is a socially-recognised and generally legally sanctioned claim on another's wealth or productivity. That is, debt is fundamentally informational, and records a relationship, but that relationship is not fundamentally grounded in any underlying physical reality. As is noted, "debts that cannot be repaid won't", and when the notional fiction runs up against such a reality, the debt is retired. That is, the information is changed.

There are numerous cultural, legal, and financial reasons to believe and behave otherwise, but ultimately, debts are a social, not a natural or intrinsic construct. Their behaviour is ultimately more a symptom than a cause of a larger growth or collapse.

Debt wants growth, but need not have it. The principle challenge is that the modern monetary system based on central banks and fiat currencies was developed in a world of rapid economic growth. It need not be limited to such a world. Currency sovereigns can both retire debts and introduce new liquidity to maintain a flow which supports commercial transactions. A major problem to date has been that new liquidity introductions tend to be to the wealth-holding classes rather than those requiring currency to pay for current and essential demand and consumption. Again, there are historical reasons for this, but they are still cultural and notional, not some underlying Law of the Universe.

Re: The Case for Degrowth

#299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The distinction between parasites and symbiotes needs to be made here. Too many in society are parasites, despite portraying the impression they are symbiotes. I'd posit entire industries fall into that category.

Every living organism that doesn't have photosynthesis may be seen in some way as a parasite. Every individual live in something like an ecosystem. I would argue that society is part of the ecosystem for humans. Whether or not (or in what cases) one individual should be forced to give up resources to another will be a never-ending discussion. Should government money be used for development aid abroad? For social welf…

"in some way" sure, but in lots of other ways not. For the sake of discussion let's pose one way in which we could define the distinction as a purely utilitarian metric - does an individual contribute more to society than they take out. The problem is that it seems to me that many individuals are professionally parasitic. That is their jobs, which they carry out diligently and conscientiously, don't contribute anything useful. As such they are purely drains on society.

I would put much of the finance industry in that bracket, which is essentially a rent seeking industry (albeit in various convoluted ways). It's doubly bad in finance because it sucks huge amounts of talent from areas where the individuals could actually contribute usefully.

Re: The Case for Degrowth

#300
post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The free market produces goods and services at less cost for everything else, why would health care be any different?

The unregulated free market mostly produces goods and services at less cost for the producer, which huge external costs to everything else.

Do you have a proof for such a statement? AFAIK most of negative externalities are either negligible or easy to be sued for. Or a responsibility of informed customer.

Of course, there's that ultimate hammer of greenhouse gases everybody is using daily, but besides these it is hard to confirm this. And these have also many positive externalities (access to plastics, cheap energy) that cannot be ignored, otherwise we would live in carbon-zero economy already.

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