Google’s caste-bias problem • Hacker News Board

Re: Google’s caste-bias problem

#211

Post by krainboltgreene » Thu, Aug 11, 2022, 4:12 PM UTC

fleddr wrote: post #172

The simplest solution from a company perspective is to not hire activist type employees. It just never ends well. You may very well find the activist's point valid and just, but it still won't end well in most cases. Other than the fact that perhaps they should spend time on actually working, the typical activist method cannot ever succeed. It starts with some sweeping assertion affecting a large group: men oppress w…

It's wild to me how much of right wing rhetoric on Hacker News is portrayed as "simply how it is" and "activist logic" is portrayed as always wrong, a failure, and counter-productive.

None of the situations described in the parent has ever happened. Nor do any of the scientific studies agree with the positions above that are implied to be facts. However, because it is written dispassionately (even condescendingly) the flaws will be ignored and the sentiment applauded.

Re: Google’s caste-bias problem

#212

Post by jackling » Thu, Aug 11, 2022, 4:16 PM UTC

hikingsimulator wrote: post #181

georgia_peach wrote: post #147

I am reposting PaulHoule's (flagged) comment because it was a very good one: > *I have wondered if the high Asian population is one reason why San Francisco has such conspicuous homelessness. Western religion has some egalitarian ideas such as “The King will reply, 'Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.” > On the other hand if you think a person…

It's not a very good one. Western philosophies and religions can definitely show this type of bias. Some branches of protestantism do believe in predestination. It's also common to see (bad) Christian takes that suffering is a challenge from god (often backed by Job's trials) and thus a thing that may not need changing. I believe Max Weber also covered this concept sociologically in The Protestant Ethic and the Spiri…

Isn't the idea that all suffering is a challenge of god key to Abrahamic religions. I always hear it from anyone religious when discussing that rational of why there is suffering the world when God can end it. And from my quick read of Job's story, it seems that it does exemplify that.

Re: Google’s caste-bias problem

#213

Post by jrsj » Thu, Aug 11, 2022, 4:24 PM UTC

fleddr wrote: post #172

The simplest solution from a company perspective is to not hire activist type employees. It just never ends well. You may very well find the activist's point valid and just, but it still won't end well in most cases. Other than the fact that perhaps they should spend time on actually working, the typical activist method cannot ever succeed. It starts with some sweeping assertion affecting a large group: men oppress w…

If the system for reporting and handling these cases on an individual basis actually worked then there wouldn't be a problem. The entire point of discussing this is to make those systems work better. Presenting counter arguments is fine, but trying to prevent the discussion from happening does suggest that you benefit from the status quo.

Re: Google’s caste-bias problem

#214

Post by dang » Thu, Aug 11, 2022, 4:27 PM UTC

Karawebnetwork wrote: post #23

Previous thread on a similar topic (2022): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31593799 And another (2020): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23697083 --- One good resource (imo as an outsider) from the recent one is this: "As a Dalit myself, I wrote a Dalit 101 for non Indian audience. https://thelit.substack.com/p/dalit-101 " by user thelit ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31595663 )

Yes. Related:

Google cancelled a talk on caste bias - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31593799 - June 2022 (946 comments)

Trapped in Silicon Valley’s hidden caste system - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30515099 - March 2022 (543 comments)

India’s tech sector reinforces old caste divides - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29994226 - Jan 2022 (5 comments)

The Casteism I See in America and American Tech Companies - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29133517 - Nov 2021 (5 comments)

How Big Tech Is Importing India’s Caste Legacy to Silicon Valley - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26435117 - March 2021 (195 comments)

Caste discrimination in some of Silicon Valley's richest tech companies - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24952698 - Oct 2020 (322 comments)

India’s engineers have thrived in the tech industry. So has its caste system - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24923338 - Oct 2020 (6 comments)

How India's ancient caste system is ruining lives in Silicon Valley - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24555492 - Sept 2020 (47 comments)

Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24552047 - Sept 2020 (613 comments)

Silicon Valley Has a Caste Discrimination Problem - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24065132 - Aug 2020 (14 comments)

California sues Cisco alleging discrimination based on India’s caste system - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23798922 - July 2020 (56 comments)

California accuses Cisco of job discrimination based on Indian employee's caste - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23697083 - July 2020 (592 comments)

Ask HN: There is caste system in the Silicon Valley? - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13704504 - Feb 2017 (6 comments)

Re: Google’s caste-bias problem

#215

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Aug 11, 2022, 4:30 PM UTC

thot_experiment wrote: post #155

zo1 wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's abundantly clear that any discrimination against non-favored groups is ignored and in cases promoted/celebrated. Heck, I live in a country with anti-white and pro-black laws/regulations. Minorities here plainly get denied jobs due to the color of their skin and no one bats an eye. I'm all for fairness for all, no matter their race, but seeing what I've seen in person is very eye opening. I no longer have sympath…

white + male is still obviously the best build for life and it still needs more nerfs, but the devs are all playing white male and think the balance is fine

[deleted]

Re: Google’s caste-bias problem

#216

Post by joshuamorton » Thu, Aug 11, 2022, 4:31 PM UTC

Manuel_D wrote: post #199

joshuamorton wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll just casually mention here that in the last week or so someone on hn claimed very insistenly to me that they, as an asian man, were the primary "victim" of modern dei policies and that white people weren't harmed by them. And that this was why dei was bad and that I was engaging in white supremacy to suggest anything to the contrary. You cannot both be correct in the reasons you dislike dei. They're contradictor…

It's entirely possible for both to be right: different companies have different DEI policies. At Dropbox from 2015-2019 we had 4 diversity categories, from most to least desirable: * Double diverse: Black or Latin + female * diverse: white or Asian female, or Black or Latin male. * standard: white male * Negatively diverse: Asian male So it definitely is the case that asian males are even more undesirable than white…

Great grandparent said nothing about "companies", but "life", so the fact that different companies may discriminate in different ways is irrelevant to their point, is it not?

Re: Google’s caste-bias problem

#217

Post by Tiktaalik » Thu, Aug 11, 2022, 4:31 PM UTC

upupandup wrote: post #110

jrsj wrote: post #70

I've also heard rumors about discrimination by Indian managers against non-Indian employees at the largest employers in my city. I'm inclined to believe this is true as I've heard from multiple people who worked there that most of engineering management consists of upper caste Indians now but that group represents a relatively small minority of engineering as a whole. I wonder if these two things are connected. In so…

> Indian managers against non-Indian employees This happens all the time in Canada. When you have a large ethnic majority and they start identifying with the language and start bringing toxic work culture with management fully aware of the issues and exploiting this. For example for a startup I worked for in Vancouver had a large Chinese/Russian majority in the development team. They would stay behind past working ho…

Sounds like you had a terrible experience at an awful company but I've never seen anything like this in my 15+ years of working in tech in Vancouver and I'm not sure we should take your experience to be extrapolated to a greater Vancouver or Canada trend in general.

Canada and multi-ethnic diversity go hand in hand. I've always worked at companies with plenty of people of Asian and South Asian heritage. Never noticed any cliques myself. Maybe because I've only worked at relatively smallish companies that are sub 400 people?

Re: Google’s caste-bias problem

#218

Post by thatguy0900 » Thu, Aug 11, 2022, 4:31 PM UTC

hadlock wrote: post #163

ldjkfkdsjnv wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No I'm saying a group of relatives from India methodically only hire eachother and use vicious politics to climb the ladder in american corporations. I watched it occur over a decade and still see the hiring updates on LinkedIn, "I am proud to announce we have hired XYZ from other big corp as the new head of data and governance."

This is very common/normal. My last company got eaten in a merger (acquisition) most of the senior leadership from the old company, are now at a competing company. They did not all end up there by random chance. Network network network. It's self reinforcing, because those people know who will get the job done, and make them look good doing it. It's often better to hire a known good person, rather than roll the dice…

There's quite a difference between hiring old coworkers and hiring family, though

Re: Google’s caste-bias problem

#219

Post by anonymoushn » Thu, Aug 11, 2022, 4:33 PM UTC

Aunche wrote: post #60

>Numerous employees within the company expressed the view that any talk on caste discrimination was offensive to them as Hindus, and made them feel unsafe. >You don’t get to claim or hijack one form of discrimination to perpetuate another form. And yet from the Hindu's perspective, this is exactly what Gupta is doing. The only instances of caste discrimination Gupta can recall are anecdotes of "coded speech". Meanwhi…

There might also be employees who spend their personal time on stormfront dot org and feel that all sorts of DEI language is coded speech, but we generally don't regard their opinions as valid.

Re: Google’s caste-bias problem

#220

Post by dang » Thu, Aug 11, 2022, 4:33 PM UTC

AuthorizedHelp wrote: post #16

I always find it funny how there are massive east asian only groups in all major corporate entities. This is not diversity, this is racism. Nice work FANG.

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