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Work, Work, Work – So a Few Can Be Rich

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Re: Work, Work, Work – So a Few Can Be Rich

#121

Post by navane »

onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #5

If you took all the income from the billionaires and distributed it evenly, the average person wouldn't even get a 2% raise. If you took all the wealth and distributed it evenly, the a average person wouldn't even get $500. In the US - Billionaires have $1.3T: https://americansfortaxfairness.org/billionaires/ That's ~$3880 per US person. Globally, there's a lot more people, and countries aren't as rich as the US. Eve…

You quote sources but you don't seem to use their numbers: US billionaires have 4.18T (not 1.3), divided over 300M gives 14k per person (not 0.5k). You were off by a factor of 28.

14k per person is actually a years worth of minimum wage (7.25x40x50).

The average US household is 2.6 ppl, so that would give 36k per household (you know, kids). That is serious money to a lot of people. Another way

On top of that, if you include the people worth 100M+ into the pie, the total amount of money goes up a lot, as there are so many more of them.

Nevertheless, I agree with your conclusion, just the sheer money they have that others don't is not the problem.

Re: Work, Work, Work – So a Few Can Be Rich

#122

Post by pwinnski »

onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #5

If you took all the income from the billionaires and distributed it evenly, the average person wouldn't even get a 2% raise. If you took all the wealth and distributed it evenly, the a average person wouldn't even get $500. In the US - Billionaires have $1.3T: https://americansfortaxfairness.org/billionaires/ That's ~$3880 per US person. Globally, there's a lot more people, and countries aren't as rich as the US. Eve…

The issue is not so much a one-time cash grab, it's that with that concentration of wealth comes a concentration of power that distorts society.

Put another way, the primary goal is not to give more money to everybody else, it's to take it away from the few who are abusing the rest of us. It could be set on fire and that would still be a benefit! That would be deflationary and reduce the ability of those people to have an outsized effect on society.

BTW, you seem to have misread the site you linked. It says that billionaire wealth grew by $1.3T in 11 months, not that they have $1.3T. It's literally in the first box on the page: "The total wealth of U.S. billionaires grew by $1.3 trillion during the roughly first eleven months of the coronavirus pandemic -- a 44% spike in wealth. This increase in wealth is more than it would cost to send a stimulus check of $3,900 to every one of the roughly 330 million people in America." So that would be a one-time $3,900 check to everyone just for 2020.

The second box says "The total wealth of U.S. billionaires grew from $240 billion in 1990 (adjusted for inflation) to $4.18 trillion in March 2021." So you're off by quite a bit, and seem to have misread your source site consistently.

Re: Work, Work, Work – So a Few Can Be Rich

#123

Post by m0llusk »

refurb wrote: post #97
m0llusk wrote: post #81

This is missing a lot of history. There was a lot of Anarchist violence in the 30s that led to things like the Inheritance Tax, now repealed. Up until Reagan it was possible to live reasonably well and even raise a family on a minimum wage. Now even middle class people can barely make it and are vulnerable to large medical bills. The past was not impossible. It actually happened. And we should be able to use that exp…

Up until Reagan it was possible to live reasonably well and even raise a family on a minimum wage At least according my grandparent's that's an absolute falsehood. Unless you assume "live well" in a 600 sq. ft. house doing manual labour in the sun and having your spouse take care of grandma who is dying of cancer for which there is no treatment.

That's exactly what I mean. You can't do that on minimum wage anywhere in America now.

Re: Work, Work, Work – So a Few Can Be Rich

#124

Post by pwinnski »

pwinnski wrote: post #122
onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #5

If you took all the income from the billionaires and distributed it evenly, the average person wouldn't even get a 2% raise. If you took all the wealth and distributed it evenly, the a average person wouldn't even get $500. In the US - Billionaires have $1.3T: https://americansfortaxfairness.org/billionaires/ That's ~$3880 per US person. Globally, there's a lot more people, and countries aren't as rich as the US. Eve…

The issue is not so much a one-time cash grab, it's that with that concentration of wealth comes a concentration of power that distorts society. Put another way, the primary goal is not to give more money to everybody else, it's to take it away from the few who are abusing the rest of us. It could be set on fire and that would still be a benefit! That would be deflationary and reduce the ability of those people to ha…

As an example of the sort of societal distortion I'm talking about, consider Elon Musk, who wanted people to buy his cars rather than take trains, and so lied about a fantastical system of tunnels he would surely build, and... well, the quote is "So the Hyperloop, for example, he admitted to his biographer that the reason the Hyperloop was announced—even though he had no intention of pursuing it—was to try to disrupt the California high-speed rail project and to get in the way of that actually succeeding."[0]

That's a recent example of a single person behaving incredibly badly, but a list of people using their wealth to do things like disport beach access, reduce housing options, badly mistreat employees, and so on, it would be endless.

0. https://gizmodo.com/silicon-valleys-transportation-failures-...

Re: Work, Work, Work – So a Few Can Be Rich

#125

Post by pwinnski »

yreg wrote: post #74
vladharbuz wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is true, but I have a slightly different question to ask. Imagine you work at, say, a game development company, along with 99 other developers. The only other member of the company is a CEO and shareholder, who decides how much to keep for himself and how much to pay the employees, but, importantly, does none of the actual work himself. Let's say the game is wildly successful and the employees are collectively p…

>does none of the actual work himself How did this person become the sole shareholder of a 100 person game company producing wildly successful game without any work in your story?

Bank loans and venture capital.

Re: Work, Work, Work – So a Few Can Be Rich

#127

Post by refurb »

pwinnski wrote: post #119
refurb wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, absolutely not "wage theft". Presumably the CEO bring something to the table - capital, fundraising ability. I mean why else have him/her? CEO hires a bunch of employees, all who get paid. The game is a success and since he put the capital at risk, he gets most the reward. The employees get their salary. Unfair? Well, what if it doesn't work out? Employees all get their salary, CEO loses his capital. Workers can…

> Presumably the CEO bring something to the table - capital, fundraising ability. I mean why else have him/her? You're so close! In fact, there's an expectation that the more you pay a CEO, the better they perform, and that those making the most must be the best. This seems to be a largely-unexamined assumption that "just makes sense," but it turns out when you try to see whether it's true, it's not[0]. By and large,…

Why did you completely ignore the capital part I talked about?

Instead of raising $10M for a business through a CEO (either their own money or through road shows), there is nothing stopping a company of 100 employees from ponying up $100,000 of their own money and reaping a share of the rewards (or losing it all).

Are you really that surprised that workers prefer a risk-free salary instead?

I mean I have the option of taking cash or equity at my company and I turn down the equity every time. I don't begrudge the ones who take the risk and make 10x what I do.

I'll be honest, you don't seem to understand how businesses work today - you're working from a flawed understanding.

Re: Work, Work, Work – So a Few Can Be Rich

#128

Post by themaninthedark »

vladharbuz wrote: post #12
onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #5

If you took all the income from the billionaires and distributed it evenly, the average person wouldn't even get a 2% raise. If you took all the wealth and distributed it evenly, the a average person wouldn't even get $500. In the US - Billionaires have $1.3T: https://americansfortaxfairness.org/billionaires/ That's ~$3880 per US person. Globally, there's a lot more people, and countries aren't as rich as the US. Eve…

This is true, but I have a slightly different question to ask. Imagine you work at, say, a game development company, along with 99 other developers. The only other member of the company is a CEO and shareholder, who decides how much to keep for himself and how much to pay the employees, but, importantly, does none of the actual work himself. Let's say the game is wildly successful and the employees are collectively p…

>The only other member of the company is a CEO and shareholder, who decides how much to keep for himself and how much to pay the employees, but, importantly, does none of the actual work himself.

What is actual work?

The coding or the graphics or perhaps the music? What about the QA?

The way your comment is formatted, I guess you don't mean the accounting, parole, shipping and receiving.

On this forum, I often see developers lamenting how much unrelated work, overhead and meetings they have to do and how saying how they could be more productive if they could just be allowed to sit down and code.

How much more "actual work" can you and others like you do when you have to meet with lawyers, file trademarks, order hardware/software while staying in a budget. Or perhaps, the CEO does some of those tasks so you can do the "actual work".

Re: Work, Work, Work – So a Few Can Be Rich

#129

Post by vladharbuz »

themaninthedark wrote: post #128
vladharbuz wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is true, but I have a slightly different question to ask. Imagine you work at, say, a game development company, along with 99 other developers. The only other member of the company is a CEO and shareholder, who decides how much to keep for himself and how much to pay the employees, but, importantly, does none of the actual work himself. Let's say the game is wildly successful and the employees are collectively p…

>The only other member of the company is a CEO and shareholder, who decides how much to keep for himself and how much to pay the employees, but, importantly, does none of the actual work himself. What is actual work? The coding or the graphics or perhaps the music? What about the QA? The way your comment is formatted, I guess you don't mean the accounting, parole, shipping and receiving. On this forum, I often see de…

My comment oversimplified the work to be done for the sake of argument. Feel free to replace some of those 100 programmers with accountants or other kinds of employees. I agree those other kinds of work are very important, and my argument remains the same.

Re: Work, Work, Work – So a Few Can Be Rich

#130

Post by oreally »

onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #111
oreally wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The cynicism is huge in your post. Still you gotta admit there is a problem with CEOs making off with huge salaries/stock value especially in very hot sectors, with some of them even trying to dodge taxes. Sure you can make an argument for the increased salary with the increased responsibilities and risk, but there is no cap there and little say from the employees. When CEOs make a few lifetime's worth of money in a…

> Still you gotta admit there is a problem with CEOs making off with huge salaries/stock value especially in very hot sectors, with some of them even trying to dodge taxes. I couldn't agree more. It doesn't mean they're the reason workers aren't significantly richer.

Imo, part of the reason at least.

Still, I'm interested in your other reasons if you got any.

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