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Let websites framebust out of native apps

holovaty.com

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Re: Let websites framebust out of native apps

#121

Post by MaxBarraclough »

kelnos wrote: post #106
kitsunesoba wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because I don't necessarily want the link I'm visiting cluttering my history and tabs, and I probably don't want the site in question to have access to my cookies and whatnot. It's much more likely that I'll check out random links in apps (HN client, reddit, twitter, etc) if I know SFSafariViewController will be there to act as a wall between the visited site and my primary browsing setup. The only thing I can see ac…

> * probably don't want the site in question to have access to my cookies and whatnot* Er, why not? Sites don't get access to any random old cookie, they get access to cookies they themselves have set before (more or less). Why should a tap from a native app be any different wrt cookie access than if you navigated to the site yourself in the web browser?

> Sites don't get access to any random old cookie, they get access to cookies they themselves have set before (more or less).

Well, kinda. Remember Facebook are able to track people around the web using their famous embedded Like button. This happens regardless of whether the button is clicked.

This is unfortunately under-reported, so I'll make do with linking to, of all places, BuzzFeed:

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/alexkantrowitz/heres-ho...

Re: Let websites framebust out of native apps

#122

Post by leodriesch »

cortesoft wrote: post #33

I feel like I am in the extreme minority in that I pretty much never use an app for anything that already has a website. I just use the website on my phone. The experience might be slightly worse, but I much prefer just staying in the browser on my phone for everything. Reddit, Twitter, the few times I log into Facebook, are all just using a browser. I just find it simpler, and I like when the interface is the same o…

This works very well, I use the Instagram PWA instead of the app. It is feature-complete content-wise, so you can view everything you can in the app.

But it is not feature-complete in the other ways, so it has no advertisements (at least for me) or the new algorithmic feed. Just the old version of the Instagram home feed that is chronological.

Highly recommend it if you can live with the decrease in "smoothness" compared to the app.

Re: Let websites framebust out of native apps

#123

Post by tnjm »

Related to the quirks of in-app browsers mentioned in the article, the Facebook, Instagram and Snapchat apps manage to break file uploading every few months, and take several weeks to fix it each time. I'm not sure why this in particular is such an achilles heel, but it's a surprisingly big problem for e.g. online stores advertizing on Instagram and offering personalized products.

Re: Let websites framebust out of native apps

#124

Post by sneak »

mitjam wrote: post #108
sneak wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On iOS this means you can't get notifications. Notifications are really important. Apple won't do web notifications because it means then people wouldn't have to pay their 10x-over-the-industry-standard premium (30% instead of 3%) for bundled credit card processing if they buy stuff on the web and not via the App Store.

This seems to have changed. Web push is coming to mobile Safari next year. https://webkit.org/blog/12945/meet-web-push/ (Edit: better link - „Keep an eye out for Web Push on iOS and iPadOS in 2023.“)

The notifications all go through Apple still, which allows them to monitor and censor them.

This is not much of an improvement. :(

Re: Let websites framebust out of native apps

#125

Post by MereInterest »

utunga wrote: post #89
cortesoft wrote: post #33

I feel like I am in the extreme minority in that I pretty much never use an app for anything that already has a website. I just use the website on my phone. The experience might be slightly worse, but I much prefer just staying in the browser on my phone for everything. Reddit, Twitter, the few times I log into Facebook, are all just using a browser. I just find it simpler, and I like when the interface is the same o…

I'm with you also. But it is getting harder and harder. I'm convinced that Facebook are actively downgrading their in-browser mobile experience for this reason. They want to force you to use their app. Reddit, at least, are more honest about it - but also very annoying. Features that used to work just fine (tagging people, editing comments) are becoming worse.

Facebook in a mobile browser also actively lies to you about Messenger notifications. It displays an icon saying that you have messages, but redirects you to install the Messenger app instead of displaying them. There aren't actually any messages present, so the entire thing is just a scam to get access to your phone.

Re: Let websites framebust out of native apps

#126

Post by ccouzens »

kitsunesoba wrote: post #95
sneak wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why shouldn't clicking a link open your browser application? It's done that the entire history of the web and computing. Embedding a browser in apps to try to keep users "engaged with your brand" after they have already clicked a link to leave for the web is a new thing and is erroneous. Why would you be irritated that clicking a web link opens the link in the browser? That's what's supposed to happen.

Because I don't necessarily want the link I'm visiting cluttering my history and tabs, and I probably don't want the site in question to have access to my cookies and whatnot. It's much more likely that I'll check out random links in apps (HN client, reddit, twitter, etc) if I know SFSafariViewController will be there to act as a wall between the visited site and my primary browsing setup. The only thing I can see ac…

My solution to not having content aggregator sites like hacker news cluttering up my history is to use them from a private tab.

I suppose on the desktop you could also use Firefox's containers.

Re: Let websites framebust out of native apps

#127

Post by ccouzens »

MaxBarraclough wrote: post #121
kelnos wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> * probably don't want the site in question to have access to my cookies and whatnot* Er, why not? Sites don't get access to any random old cookie, they get access to cookies they themselves have set before (more or less). Why should a tap from a native app be any different wrt cookie access than if you navigated to the site yourself in the web browser?

> Sites don't get access to any random old cookie, they get access to cookies they themselves have set before (more or less). Well, kinda. Remember Facebook are able to track people around the web using their famous embedded Like button. This happens regardless of whether the button is clicked. This is unfortunately under-reported, so I'll make do with linking to, of all places, BuzzFeed: https://www.buzzfeednews.com…

My reply is also to the parent comment.

This behaviour is possible because most browsers aren't configured to block third party cookies. Make sure you've set yours to do so, and embedded content like Facebook's like button will see you as a fresh user every time.

Re: Let websites framebust out of native apps

#128

Post by account42 »

cat_plus_plus wrote: post #50

Really, the proposal is to prevent people from implementing alternative web browsers? How about this: - Want to control the experience? Implement your own app - Want to be easily accessible to users without them having to install your app? Then accept them using any browser, including one embedded into Twitter - Want to only support specific web browser? You can try to detect them using various tricks or convince the…

Exactly, if there are apps that are collecting data they they should not or being otherwise malicious then we should go after those apps - preferably via the law but the app store gatekeepers can also act. This is not something we need to throw out the entire concept of alternate user agents over.

Re: Let websites framebust out of native apps

#129

Post by ccouzens »

utunga wrote: post #89
cortesoft wrote: post #33

I feel like I am in the extreme minority in that I pretty much never use an app for anything that already has a website. I just use the website on my phone. The experience might be slightly worse, but I much prefer just staying in the browser on my phone for everything. Reddit, Twitter, the few times I log into Facebook, are all just using a browser. I just find it simpler, and I like when the interface is the same o…

I'm with you also. But it is getting harder and harder. I'm convinced that Facebook are actively downgrading their in-browser mobile experience for this reason. They want to force you to use their app. Reddit, at least, are more honest about it - but also very annoying. Features that used to work just fine (tagging people, editing comments) are becoming worse.

It has gotten so bad that I now wait to I'm on my laptop before I post to Facebook.

I did try the app again recently and it was bad in other ways (eg not using my phone's photo picker. As the photo I wanted was on a cloud service I couldn't select it from the app)

Re: Let websites framebust out of native apps

#130

Post by throwaway14356 »

samwillis wrote: post #102

In app browsers are a real problem for online stores and e-commerce, the issue being they (mostly) don’t maintain session cookies when a user clicks the “open in Safari/browser” button. This is disastrous for shopping carts. Say your are an advertiser with an ad click or have a visitor come organically from social. They like your products and place them in their cart and go to checkout, at checkout they want to use A…

it sounds like a scam. If it hurts sales you've paid for it would be hard to argue differently.

Showing the advertised page in an iframe is a very old scam. You can buy those "clicks" for around 5 dollar per 5000

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