Work, Work, Work – So a Few Can Be Rich • Hacker News Board

Re: Work, Work, Work – So a Few Can Be Rich

#21

Post by sparrish » Thu, Aug 11, 2022, 12:07 PM UTC

becquerel wrote: post #6

OrangeMonkey wrote: post #3

> Only a radical change in how work is done and who controls this can make labor once again an integral part of life, one through which we can fully develop our capacities as thinking, acting human beings. uhh. The article appears to suggest that we change who controls our labor... #1 - we do, we can quit anytime we want and find another place to work for. #2 - I assume they are railing against private individuals an…

We can choose who we work for (sometimes), but we can't choose not to work at all. Our engagement in the capitalist labour market is mandatory; otherwise we starve to death. Doesn't sound like we have much control over our labour to me.

Visit any large city in the US and you'll find hundreds or thousands who have made that choice. They line the sidewalks and alleys. Yes, you have that choice; you may not like the lifestyle it provides but you have that choice.

Re: Work, Work, Work – So a Few Can Be Rich

#22

Post by OrangeMonkey » Thu, Aug 11, 2022, 12:08 PM UTC

libertine wrote: post #11

OrangeMonkey wrote: post #3

> Only a radical change in how work is done and who controls this can make labor once again an integral part of life, one through which we can fully develop our capacities as thinking, acting human beings. uhh. The article appears to suggest that we change who controls our labor... #1 - we do, we can quit anytime we want and find another place to work for. #2 - I assume they are railing against private individuals an…

>#1 - we do, we can quit anytime we want and find another place to work for. Sometimes this is not straight forward for example when you have some responsibilities in your life, or when your career is too specialized with little to no transferable skill (like when you´re proficient at an internal process of a company). Unless we could quit and be self sustainable without a job, then yes, at that point you could say o…

I think my point is being misunderstood just slightly.

Its not that 'finding a job is easy' its that we are not slaves and while we can not necessarily choose who we labor for, we can choose who we do not labor for.

Re: Work, Work, Work – So a Few Can Be Rich

#23

Post by VictorPath » Thu, Aug 11, 2022, 12:09 PM UTC

onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #5

If you took all the income from the billionaires and distributed it evenly, the average person wouldn't even get a 2% raise. If you took all the wealth and distributed it evenly, the a average person wouldn't even get $500. In the US - Billionaires have $1.3T: https://americansfortaxfairness.org/billionaires/ That's ~$3880 per US person. Globally, there's a lot more people, and countries aren't as rich as the US. Eve…

This is a strawman argument. It is a diversion. It is not about billionaires and their wealth.

It is about the expropriation of a worker's surplus labor time by the heirs. It is about control of all the worker's work time (surplus and non-surplus) by the heirs.

Re: Work, Work, Work – So a Few Can Be Rich

#24

Post by lr4444lr » Thu, Aug 11, 2022, 12:09 PM UTC

becquerel wrote: post #6

OrangeMonkey wrote: post #3

> Only a radical change in how work is done and who controls this can make labor once again an integral part of life, one through which we can fully develop our capacities as thinking, acting human beings. uhh. The article appears to suggest that we change who controls our labor... #1 - we do, we can quit anytime we want and find another place to work for. #2 - I assume they are railing against private individuals an…

We can choose who we work for (sometimes), but we can't choose not to work at all. Our engagement in the capitalist labour market is mandatory; otherwise we starve to death. Doesn't sound like we have much control over our labour to me.

Parasitism was a crime in the USSR. Venezuela for a time, maybe still, had compulsory field labor during the oil price crisis. Where exactly - "capitalist" or otherwise - can you choose not to work without having to submit yourself to extensive checks for actual means tested poverty to get guaranteed food/clothing/shelter?

Re: Work, Work, Work – So a Few Can Be Rich

#25

Post by bjarneh » Thu, Aug 11, 2022, 12:09 PM UTC

> ...between 1971 and 2018, 3,280 trade unionists were murdered in Colombia.

> Is there a solution? Not within this system. No amount of union organizing or progressive legislation will alter the nature of work in it.

Why are they killing the union leaders if unionization does not work? The massive push by large industries to get unions out of the mix indicates that unions helps workers massively. Collective bargaining changes everything for the workers as companies are forced to give them a much larger part of the value they produce. A society where people make good money also creates a positive spiral of consumption which makes it much easier for others to create well paying jobs as well - when people actually have money to spend.

Re: Work, Work, Work – So a Few Can Be Rich

#26

Post by interfaced » Thu, Aug 11, 2022, 12:09 PM UTC

vladharbuz wrote: post #12

onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #5

If you took all the income from the billionaires and distributed it evenly, the average person wouldn't even get a 2% raise. If you took all the wealth and distributed it evenly, the a average person wouldn't even get $500. In the US - Billionaires have $1.3T: https://americansfortaxfairness.org/billionaires/ That's ~$3880 per US person. Globally, there's a lot more people, and countries aren't as rich as the US. Eve…

This is true, but I have a slightly different question to ask. Imagine you work at, say, a game development company, along with 99 other developers. The only other member of the company is a CEO and shareholder, who decides how much to keep for himself and how much to pay the employees, but, importantly, does none of the actual work himself. Let's say the game is wildly successful and the employees are collectively p…

If the game fails are those 99 employees ready to give their salary back? I imagine many places would allow their employees to buy options or stock.

Re: Work, Work, Work – So a Few Can Be Rich

#27

Post by croon » Thu, Aug 11, 2022, 12:09 PM UTC

onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #5

If you took all the income from the billionaires and distributed it evenly, the average person wouldn't even get a 2% raise. If you took all the wealth and distributed it evenly, the a average person wouldn't even get $500. In the US - Billionaires have $1.3T: https://americansfortaxfairness.org/billionaires/ That's ~$3880 per US person. Globally, there's a lot more people, and countries aren't as rich as the US. Eve…

> In the US - Billionaires have $1.4T: https://americansfortaxfairness.org/billionaires/

Correction: It says 4.2T on the site you linked when I clicked through to the google doc [0].

[0] https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Q1iNtDEDsm_tMQhRSmE9...

Re: Work, Work, Work – So a Few Can Be Rich

#28

Post by OrangeMonkey » Thu, Aug 11, 2022, 12:10 PM UTC

VictorPath wrote: post #19

OrangeMonkey wrote: post #3

> Only a radical change in how work is done and who controls this can make labor once again an integral part of life, one through which we can fully develop our capacities as thinking, acting human beings. uhh. The article appears to suggest that we change who controls our labor... #1 - we do, we can quit anytime we want and find another place to work for. #2 - I assume they are railing against private individuals an…

> uhh. The article appears to suggest that we change who controls our labor... > #1 - we do, we can quit anytime we want and find another place to work for. We change who controls our labor by making those who control our labor us, the workers creating wealth, not the heirs who own companies and expropriate our surplus labor time via dividend profit checks. The idea that a worker controls his own labor seems to be th…

No, I'm a big fan of workers controlling their own labor.

If a person wants to 100% control their own labor, they can create a business and provide their services (at a price someone else will pay for them) to the world at large.

What is alien to me is that a person believes they can take over other peoples property (factories, existing IP [go to microsoft, say 'windows is mine now' and try to sell your copy of the source). I'm a big fan of property rights.

So, I think we mostly agree right? Someone should be able to start their own business, using their own funds, and have their chance to excel in this world.

Re: Work, Work, Work – So a Few Can Be Rich

#29

Post by thesausageking » Thu, Aug 11, 2022, 12:10 PM UTC

onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #5

If you took all the income from the billionaires and distributed it evenly, the average person wouldn't even get a 2% raise. If you took all the wealth and distributed it evenly, the a average person wouldn't even get $500. In the US - Billionaires have $1.3T: https://americansfortaxfairness.org/billionaires/ That's ~$3880 per US person. Globally, there's a lot more people, and countries aren't as rich as the US. Eve…

This is misunderstanding how billionaires get their wealth. It's mainly from investments and equity, not income. Share of wealth is a better number to look at. The top 1% now own close to double what they did in 1980:

https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/top-1-share-of-net-person...

The numbers for 0.1% and 0.001% are even more extreme:

https://www.chicagobooth.edu/review/never-mind-1-percent-let...

Re: Work, Work, Work – So a Few Can Be Rich

#30

Post by lr4444lr » Thu, Aug 11, 2022, 12:11 PM UTC

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #14

onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #5

If you took all the income from the billionaires and distributed it evenly, the average person wouldn't even get a 2% raise. If you took all the wealth and distributed it evenly, the a average person wouldn't even get $500. In the US - Billionaires have $1.3T: https://americansfortaxfairness.org/billionaires/ That's ~$3880 per US person. Globally, there's a lot more people, and countries aren't as rich as the US. Eve…

The thought that 'billionaires' are the problem is missing the point. There are folks worth the better part of $1T. They are a bigger part of the problem, by several orders of magnitude. The systematic problems are, that the system is rigged so a tiny few skim from everything, leaving the absolute minimum they can get away with for the rest of us.

What's "everything"? Wealth isn't fixed.