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“Autistic people can’t acknowledge when they’re wrong”

the.scapegoat.dev

441–450 of 521 posts

Re: “Autistic people can’t acknowledge when they’re wrong”

#441
post #68
post #19

I read this as being strongly opinionated and egocentric.. I want to call it "ausplaining", this tendency to go "no no, YOU don't understand ME (because I'm special, not because I'm wrong)" whenever we get ourselves into situations like the exemplified. I do this A LOT as well, and when people do stick with me for long enough, I often find that I'm either getting my point across by re-framing my explanation, or disco…

Author here, thanks for reading. I didn’t give much information about my life, but I am pretty adept at playing all these games. So much so that I thought there was no way I could be autistic because of how many friends and business relationships I had. Until it hit me that I spent my 20ies doing what you suggest, which is studying the heck out of these things. But it stops at engineering, where I try to be very open…

You sound like the "asperger's" person who we are in the process of offboarding from our team.

One can have asperger's and still be nice to people. These things are not mutually exclusive. I see too many people who find it convenient to be a toxic, rude bully, and don't know that they are, and use their condition as an excuse to be a jerk.

Re: “Autistic people can’t acknowledge when they’re wrong”

#442
post #380
post #350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How did you learn you were autistic? I've always thought I might be but I've not invested the time in finding out.

I was watching the netflix documentary about rubik's cube on netflix with my wife, and you see this autistic kid (rubik's cube champion), who doesn't speak until he's three, being friend with a much more socially accomplished other champion, and you can see him over the documentary looking at his friend and learning . I saw that and I suddenly realized that my whole twenties, that's exactly what I did. I read books a…

Wow 43 out of 50 is rather high. I fell under the the suggested threshold of 32 and got 29.

I have similar memories of my 20s trying to learn how to behave in a social setting. But I also remember things clicking at some point and that part of the world stopped requiring so much effort.

Thank you for sharing. I hope you're able to get your diagnosis.

Re: “Autistic people can’t acknowledge when they’re wrong”

#443
post #360
post #19

I read this as being strongly opinionated and egocentric.. I want to call it "ausplaining", this tendency to go "no no, YOU don't understand ME (because I'm special, not because I'm wrong)" whenever we get ourselves into situations like the exemplified. I do this A LOT as well, and when people do stick with me for long enough, I often find that I'm either getting my point across by re-framing my explanation, or disco…

> I want to call it "ausplaining", this tendency to go "no no, YOU don't understand ME (because I'm special, not because I'm wrong)" That's certainly a message I have encountered in some places, and in the first few sentences of this article I thought that's what I might find here. But unlike you, I quickly concluded that that was not at all the article I was reading. Rather than argue that they were special because…

[deleted]

Re: “Autistic people can’t acknowledge when they’re wrong”

#444

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And the OP is never actually wrong, he just couldn't explain himself

That could be your ego talking? Always re-interpreting reality to put yourself on a pedestal? It is a bit silly talking in circles with people that have theory of mind deficits. You just have to avoid the "correctness conversation" and try to point them in the right direction, but it's honestly like pulling teeth.

My comment was sarcastic, not sure it came through.

Re: “Autistic people can’t acknowledge when they’re wrong”

#445
post #415

Oh man. Reading this hit hard on so many points for me. I am also autisic. I don’t agree generally with some of the conclusions and approach of the author, but I suspect they are navigating a truely hostile (to them) work environment. Now before you dismiss me, consider that autistic people are generally speaking… awful at recognizing situations that are actively hostile to them. And yes, Neurotypicals are sometime q…

I recognize myself quite well in those words. Thank god I didn't have to encounter an actively hostile person yet, but my big discovery last year was indeed that not everyone at work is motivated by doing a good job. It obviously sounds obvious when put like this, but it is something I wasn't able to put together in my own life. I have since left this job (my immediate colleagues and most people I worked with were gr…

> What I don't know how to handle (as evidenced by some comments here) is when to divulge how much I study / what fields I have a lot of experience in. I never understood where the boundary is between people thinking you are a know-it-all and arrogant, and thinking you are an idiot.

I think the thing to understand, is that non-autistics are very, very particular about the difference between what's inside their own mind, and what's inside your mind. Even on a topic that you may know "everything" about, you still know nothing about what the other person knows about the same subject. Everything on the right side of the below drawing (assuming that you're the one on the left) is in the dark to you, or close to it. And, likewise, everything on your side is in the dark to the other person.

  |   O                                                           O   |
  | ----- ( inner landscape (fact) ) ( inner landscape (fact) ) ----- |
  |   |                                                           |   |
  |  / \                                                         / \  |
The process of discussion, as seen from the non-autistic person's point of view, is to let you peek into their mind, and to let you see what they know (or don't know) about the topic that's being discussed. And they expect you to let them peek into your mind, and to let them see what you know about the subject. What they are very particular about is that their facts (about the subject at hand) are their facts, and your facts are your facts. Their mental model is to try and align their own thoughts about the subject at hand with your thoughts about the subject. Their goal is for both of you to "see" each others minds, and to bring them into sync, on the topic at hand. It's a process of alignment of two minds, on a particular topic.

  |   O                                O   |
  | ----- ( inner landscape (fact) ) ----- |
  |   |                                |   |
  |  / \                              / \  |
The autistic person, instead, has a tendency to think that when he has studied everything that there is to know about a subject it allows him to not consider the contents of the other person's mind, because the contents "should" be the same. This is what's considered as "arrogant" by the non-autistic counterpart. To him, when you do this - and I will stress this, even if you know everything there is to know in the world about a particular subject - it's a transgression. To him it's as if you disregard the existence of the contents of his mind. He wants you, and expects you, to consider the contents of his mind, even in the case where it's blank on a particular subject.

What non-autistic persons react to, usually, is the blurring of the line between what's inside their mind, and what's inside your mind. When you see it as if you're just communicating the objective facts of the situation, and "divulging how much you've studied the topic", they view it as a transgression, and as a side-stepping of the natural process of "alignment of minds".

Finally, since your user name has a sort of Nordic ring to it, I will disclose a related poem by the Norwegian poet Haldis Moren Vesaas (if you're not Nordic, just disregard it):

  ORD OVER GRIND

  Du går fram til mi inste grind
  og eg går òg fram til di.
  Innanfor den er kvar av oss einsam,
  og det skal vi alltid bli.

  Aldri trenge seg lenger fram,
  var lova som gjaldt oss to.
  Anten vi møttest titt eller sjeldan
  var møtet tillit og ro.

  Står du der ikkje ein dag eg kjem
  fell det meg lett å snu
  når eg har stått litt og sett mot huset
  og tenkt på at der bur du.

  Så lenge eg veit du vil kome iblant
  som no over knastrande grus
  og smile glad når du ser meg stå her,
  skal eg ha ein heim i mitt hus.

Re: “Autistic people can’t acknowledge when they’re wrong”

#446
post #392
post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for reading. I agree, this article is about the times when things escalated, and I didn’t think I was wrong, or more precisely, didn’t even get to the point where I could be wrong. When I’m wrong I just say “oh you’re right, good point” and move on. It’s very easy to do.

The problem is that you come across as the very stereotype of a person who is so focused on arguing about an irrelevant detail that there is no point in having the conversation with it. From my experiences with people on the spectrum, I would bet that you are arguing based on YOUR misunderstanding of the situation. And so your blog post can be summarized as, "Person who is convinced that they are right refuses to adm…

Let's be serious for a second. If the manager has those questions why did he ask about an unrelated rewrite of existing software into react?

The second question is quite literally just a "Have you experience with React?" which doesn't require additional questions for clarification. The manager would be expecting a "yes/no, but ..." type of answer. Honestly your questions would be asked in a meeting with as many developers and even non developers as possible to save time, not in a one to one conversation.

Honestly this whole topic is way too similar to the Dilbert comic where Dilber asks his boss what colour he wants his database in, to test whether he understands what a database is.

https://dilbert.com/search_results?terms=Database%20Mauve

Re: “Autistic people can’t acknowledge when they’re wrong”

#447
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

thanks for reading, author here! the article is very much a response to a blame already expressed. People can be wrong about factual things, which can be verified. Otherwise it’s a difference of opinions. These are my thoughts on why differences of opinions get phrased as “autistic people just can’t admit when they are wrong”, when myself and most autistic people I know in fact readily admit when we are wrong and mov…

> People can be wrong about factual things, which can be verified. Otherwise it’s a difference of opinions. This attitude is exactly what [neurotypical] people generally mean when they say "[some] autistic people can't acknowledge when they're wrong". Not that autistic people are so convinced of their own rightness that they stare at the compiler saying "my code is flawless, the compiler must be bugged" because there…

I fail to grasp what "acknowledge when they're wrong" is supposed to mean. From what I can tell the author insists on deductive reasoning to determine whether something is right or wrong and any wrong conclusions are quickly discarded. Hence, there are only two options, right, not disproven (opinion).

Re: “Autistic people can’t acknowledge when they’re wrong”

#448

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Neuro diverse people can't necessarily change their behaviour because it's how their brain is wired. It's like asking a visually impaired person to just see better. Many neuro diverse people have to force themselves to "fit in" causing untold stress and trauma. That's not for their own good, it's forcing their brains to work in a way that they don't.

That is essentially saying that autistic people can't learn. That's not really the case. Furthermore everyone has to adjust to the people around them, often causing untold stress for everyone . This is one of the aspects of the neurodivergency movement I am less impressed by because I feel it's just handwaving away any issues as "suck it up, not my problem, deal with it". I've worked with a few people like this over…

"is our checkout page not performing well?" to the React rewrite manager comes off as a rather dismissive "why would you want to do that?"

Could you explain why? I don't see it that way and would like to learn your perspective.

Re: “Autistic people can’t acknowledge when they’re wrong”

#449

> However, "giving in" is not the same as acknowledging when you are wrong: it is simply playing mind games—games I am not interested in playing. > There is more to life: I am an engineer; I like solving problems. I embrace fairness and open intellectual exchange. This matters to me a whole lot more than getting promoted. Plus, "giving in" does not preserve peace—it simply appeases bullies and makes the workplace tox…

> I think people can mean either one by "giving in", I am wondering whether the OP, in rejecting "pretending I agree when I don't" is accidentally being the person who "always insists on getting their way every time". Yes, it's possible that the OP is accidentally being a bully by insisting on getting their way every time. But it's also possible that everything the OP is saying is true, and the other party really is…

> Yes, it's possible that the OP is accidentally being a bully by insisting on getting their way every time. But it's also possible that everything the OP is saying is true, and the other party really is objectively wrong.

My point is that both of these things can be true. By insisting you always get your way in any dispute, you can be a bully even if you are always "objectively right".

How do we know who is "objectively right"? Both sides believe they are, right? Have you never realized later you were wrong about something?

> I personally have encountered a situation where a tech lead repeatedly doubled down on idea that was objectively deeply flawed, but they had a lot of political capital, so management told me I just needed to "give in". Other engineers agreed with my assessment in private, but weren't willing to say so publicly.

I will say again that I am not suggesting that anyone lie about what they think, or say one thing publicly or another privately, or not share their true assessments publicly, or that this is a good culture where people think they need to.

Re: “Autistic people can’t acknowledge when they’re wrong”

#450

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is essentially saying that autistic people can't learn. That's not really the case. Furthermore everyone has to adjust to the people around them, often causing untold stress for everyone . This is one of the aspects of the neurodivergency movement I am less impressed by because I feel it's just handwaving away any issues as "suck it up, not my problem, deal with it". I've worked with a few people like this over…

> That is essentially saying that autistic people can't learn. That's not really the case. Autists cannot just learn to act more like an NT in the exact same way that a blind person cannot just learn to see better. Your rejection of this extremely basic fact is an all-too-common combination of ignorance and/or bigotry.

This is clearly not true. I was diagnosed with autism in high school, struggled with many things for many years, and nearing 40 now I've learned a great many things since then. My previous comment you're replying to was very much written from personal experience. I didn't mention this because I didn't think it's necessarily all that relevant.

Of course not everyone is the same, and things are different for other people; everyone is different. Some people may struggle more, or may have a hard time learning some things. But a blanket "you can never learn anything, full stop" is just not true.

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