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“Autistic people can’t acknowledge when they’re wrong”

the.scapegoat.dev

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Re: “Autistic people can’t acknowledge when they’re wrong”

#431

Post by krageon »

jrochkind1 wrote: post #359

> However, "giving in" is not the same as acknowledging when you are wrong: it is simply playing mind games—games I am not interested in playing. > There is more to life: I am an engineer; I like solving problems. I embrace fairness and open intellectual exchange. This matters to me a whole lot more than getting promoted. Plus, "giving in" does not preserve peace—it simply appeases bullies and makes the workplace tox…

> This is not appeasing bullies [...]

It is though. It's a way of saying "maybe I'm wrong, and we're going to act this out by pretending that I am". This means that whoever put pressure on you gets their way, which motivates them to do it again. That is toxic.

Re: “Autistic people can’t acknowledge when they’re wrong”

#432

Post by Noos »

larve wrote: post #301
Volundr wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing is, at least in the first example, the way I read it isn't "autistic people can't admit when they are wrong". From your own telling of the story it seems like a manager asked you "Should we rewrite the checkout page in React?", and you responded with "Should we rewrite the checkout page in React?". You failed to realize that all of the questions you asked them are the question they were asking YOU. They've…

The questions you bring up are really the questions I am asking? What do they think the weaknesses of the page are? Do they think rewriting the checkout will solve these problems? How much of the technical tradeoffs do they understand or care about? To recap: Is our checkout page not performing well? Will a new checkout solve our problem? Why do they think a technology change is a solution? Do they understand the imp…

You are working with him to create a solution and should ask questions from a shared point of view. Your questions instead sound like you are doubting him.

"How can this make our checkout page better?" "What benefits do other companies get from using React?" "Is it feasible to change technology at this time?" "There might be implications if we switch, like..."

You are not understanding why they should consider it; you are subtly asking them to justify why they are bothering you.

Re: “Autistic people can’t acknowledge when they’re wrong”

#433

Post by krageon »

namecheapTA wrote: post #399
jrochkind1 wrote: post #359

> However, "giving in" is not the same as acknowledging when you are wrong: it is simply playing mind games—games I am not interested in playing. > There is more to life: I am an engineer; I like solving problems. I embrace fairness and open intellectual exchange. This matters to me a whole lot more than getting promoted. Plus, "giving in" does not preserve peace—it simply appeases bullies and makes the workplace tox…

If you can't convince the other person through evidence or logic, atleast in technical matters, what are the odds you are actually right?

There are thousands of things engineers bikeshed about that have no objective answer but still end up being a major source of discussion. So I would say the odds are good, given that in a bikesheddable argument both sides are correct.

Re: “Autistic people can’t acknowledge when they’re wrong”

#434

Post by krageon »

rendall wrote: post #237
larve wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for reading. I agree, this article is about the times when things escalated, and I didn’t think I was wrong, or more precisely, didn’t even get to the point where I could be wrong. When I’m wrong I just say “oh you’re right, good point” and move on. It’s very easy to do.

I have a girlfriend who believes herself to be on the autism spectrum, and I cannot over years ever recall her admitting that she was wrong or apologizing at any time for anything. We do get along despite that, but I was kind of hoping for insight.

I have many autistic (actually diagnosed) friends and I've heard most of them say they're wrong multiple times. It comes with knowing people for years. If you know someone for years and they've never said they're wrong, that has nothing to do with autism. They're just an asshole.

Re: “Autistic people can’t acknowledge when they’re wrong”

#435

Post by yobbo »

gnfargbl wrote: post #25

> I needed to understand why our checkout had to be improved; I explained that technology choices made no difference to the user. However, the manager interpreted my words as outright rejecting their idea. That's an exceptionally patronising position to take. The manager almost certainly isn't a fool, and likely understands the author's point already. It's much more likely that the manager was actually asking if the…

> It's much more likely that the manager was actually asking if the author had reviewed the technology stack recently

Yes, this is more likely. But autistics expect communication to be true and relevant. When it is not, it sounds like incompetence and dishonesty to an autistic.

If anything, allistic people allow a certain benefit of doubt in communications before assuming incompetence/dishonesty. And then they generally play along with incompetent/dishonest people if the social context requires it.

Re: “Autistic people can’t acknowledge when they’re wrong”

#436

Post by KronisLV »

a_puppy wrote: post #422
jrochkind1 wrote: post #359

> However, "giving in" is not the same as acknowledging when you are wrong: it is simply playing mind games—games I am not interested in playing. > There is more to life: I am an engineer; I like solving problems. I embrace fairness and open intellectual exchange. This matters to me a whole lot more than getting promoted. Plus, "giving in" does not preserve peace—it simply appeases bullies and makes the workplace tox…

> I think people can mean either one by "giving in", I am wondering whether the OP, in rejecting "pretending I agree when I don't" is accidentally being the person who "always insists on getting their way every time". Yes, it's possible that the OP is accidentally being a bully by insisting on getting their way every time. But it's also possible that everything the OP is saying is true, and the other party really is…

> I personally have encountered a situation where a tech lead repeatedly doubled down on idea that was objectively deeply flawed, but they had a lot of political capital, so management told me I just needed to "give in". Other engineers agreed with my assessment in private, but weren't willing to say so publicly.

That that point you need to choose, which you value more highly: correctness and finding the best technical solution, or maintaining as much team cohesion and not "stirring the water" too much.

So, if it's not your head on the chopping block, but a public decision about how to do things (ideally documented in an ADR - architecture decision record, with an author attached), just roll with it and indeed "give in". Ideally with some of your concerns documented, as well as a few prepared suggestions for how to deal with the eventual fallout and how to fix some of the things that might go wrong.

Re: “Autistic people can’t acknowledge when they’re wrong”

#437

Post by BubbleRings »

And to you with the college degree, that he mentioned. Be aware that, by now, several years beyond typical college age, OP now reads more textbook material in a year than many graduates read in their entire college experience.

The wizard has worked much harder than you for many many years. He just doesn't frame it and hang it on his office wall.

Re: “Autistic people can’t acknowledge when they’re wrong”

#438

Post by hellofelicia »

camtarn wrote: post #157
larve wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

thanks for reading, author here! the article is very much a response to a blame already expressed. People can be wrong about factual things, which can be verified. Otherwise it’s a difference of opinions. These are my thoughts on why differences of opinions get phrased as “autistic people just can’t admit when they are wrong”, when myself and most autistic people I know in fact readily admit when we are wrong and mov…

I feel like the article isn't actually directly addressing its title. It could be stronger with some situations to when you were wrong, with examples of how that was swiftly resolved, as you mentioned in the intro paragraph. At the moment it feels like it takes for granted that you're good at resolving situations where you're objectively wrong, so it's only addressing situations where there was a difference of opinio…

Yeah, the rebuttal to "you never admit that you are wrong" is "here's a bunch of situations where I admitted I was wrong", not "I actually was just never wrong in the first place".

Re: “Autistic people can’t acknowledge when they’re wrong”

#439

Post by labrador »

I had a brilliant autistic girlfriend and everything she said was fine but she would say them at the wrong time. She couldn't read the situation. She would be the kind of person to correct her boss in front of his boss.

I learned from watching her and thinking about what she should be doing. For example, I had a altercation with a guy over a parking spot we both wanted. I was alone but he had his girlfriend in the car. I looked at it from his point of view and realized there was no way he was going to back down in front of his girlfriend, so I let him have the space in a friendly way and went about my day.

Re: “Autistic people can’t acknowledge when they’re wrong”

#440

Post by lovemenot »

>> autistic people cant acknowledge when they are wrong

The only acknowledgement made in the article is internally: I read more, I investigate things I don't know.

Other than this, the person seems to fail to acknowledge the possibility of ever being wrong to us readers. Indurectltly justifying the presumed prejudice of allistics.

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