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The Case for Degrowth

lrb.co.uk

41–50 of 332 posts

Re: The Case for Degrowth

#41
post #26
post #20

This is all very abstract, so you can't really see the stupidity behind it. You can say "economic growth is out of control, we need to reduce GDP by 50% and get comfortable with it" and many people will applaud. But if you say things like "We are growing too much food, we need to reduce the amount of food grown worldwide by 50%", people will realize the much more morbid consequences of your ignorant prescription - ma…

Well, we do need food. But do we need it so highly processed? Do we really need video game consoles or Netflix? Do we need to change phone or car quite so often? I'm sure we all can find a number of things that we own and shouldn't really have bought. I'm not sure what it takes to degrow, but I'm pretty convinced that there's lots of fat in our consumerist lives that could be trimmed away even without changing our da…

Video games and Netflix are among the least environmentally impactful forms of entertainment. They use far less land and resources than, say, golf or most sports.

Re: The Case for Degrowth

#42

The problem with ideas like this is that it takes the ladder away from middle class and the poor. Both need growth in order to improve their conditions, and their place in society exists only because they can produce growth. Without it the power of the wealthy over them would become a weight pressing down with such force that it would intolerable.

The conditions of the middle-class are actually too luxurious. Everybody in the world can't have a suburban lawn. What the middle-class (and the poor) don't have is security . They live in a state of fear that the entire bottom will drop out of their lives if they get fired, or have a heart attack, or any of a million things. Supplying security to people is actually cheaper that what we do now, just as socialized hea…

People seem to be willing to trade some level of security for some level of luxury. This is why people take out the largest mortgage they possibly can given their income, and spend money they don't have on cars (which they will take a long time to pay off).

These revealed preferences are hard to deny, and it would be quite presumptuous to impose a different trade-off on a plurality/majority of the populace.

Re: The Case for Degrowth

#43
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, we do need food. But do we need it so highly processed? Do we really need video game consoles or Netflix? Do we need to change phone or car quite so often? I'm sure we all can find a number of things that we own and shouldn't really have bought. I'm not sure what it takes to degrow, but I'm pretty convinced that there's lots of fat in our consumerist lives that could be trimmed away even without changing our da…

Arguing for greater efficiency or arguing against luxury is so, so different from arguing for degrowth. Maybe I’m wrong, but it seems that degrowth is fundamentally misanthropic. And the core of the misanthropic philosophy is the belief that mankind and nature are two different things. We will likely die for the lack of philosophy.

Yep, I call it "plants are better than people" thinking.

Re: The Case for Degrowth

#44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'd trade most (though maybe not all) of the great meals I've ever had for the guarantee I'd never go hungry. I wouldn’t — and there’s been times I was quite hungry while homeless. Moreover, your fear doesn’t give you the right to impose that choice on me.

> your fear doesn’t give you the right to impose that choice on me. That's entirely up for discussion. Civilization has imposed a lot of choices on you that you may not like.

In the same sense any rights are “entirely up for discussion”.

Is that your point? — that because we had slavery, slavery is “entirely up for discussion”?

Re: The Case for Degrowth

#45
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, we do need food. But do we need it so highly processed? Do we really need video game consoles or Netflix? Do we need to change phone or car quite so often? I'm sure we all can find a number of things that we own and shouldn't really have bought. I'm not sure what it takes to degrow, but I'm pretty convinced that there's lots of fat in our consumerist lives that could be trimmed away even without changing our da…

Arguing for greater efficiency or arguing against luxury is so, so different from arguing for degrowth. Maybe I’m wrong, but it seems that degrowth is fundamentally misanthropic. And the core of the misanthropic philosophy is the belief that mankind and nature are two different things. We will likely die for the lack of philosophy.

Mankind is to Nature as a cancer cell is to the rest of the organism. Very much part of it, also very much going to kill it because it can't stop growing and consuming resources. But there is no intent, it's just buggy code.

Mankind is not malicious, just malignant.

Re: The Case for Degrowth

#46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Arguing for greater efficiency or arguing against luxury is so, so different from arguing for degrowth. Maybe I’m wrong, but it seems that degrowth is fundamentally misanthropic. And the core of the misanthropic philosophy is the belief that mankind and nature are two different things. We will likely die for the lack of philosophy.

Mankind is to Nature as a cancer cell is to the rest of the organism. Very much part of it, also very much going to kill it because it can't stop growing and consuming resources. But there is no intent, it's just buggy code. Mankind is not malicious, just malignant.

...said every supervillain in scifi.

You might want to build an evil AI to swallow the fly.

Re: The Case for Degrowth

#47

It's certainly a thought provoking piece. I'm wondering how stable the system is if all countries decide to degrowth, but one doesn't play ball. Naively you'd think that country would start to dominate economically/politically, so others may have to 'defect' as well... But maybe that's too simplistic.

The exact same logic makes nuclear disarmament extremely, almost laughably unlikely.

...given the perpetuation of competitive nation-states.

Re: The Case for Degrowth

#48
post #20

This is all very abstract, so you can't really see the stupidity behind it. You can say "economic growth is out of control, we need to reduce GDP by 50% and get comfortable with it" and many people will applaud. But if you say things like "We are growing too much food, we need to reduce the amount of food grown worldwide by 50%", people will realize the much more morbid consequences of your ignorant prescription - ma…

Framing degrowth as a choice (against continued economic growth / business as usual (BAU)), rather than as a planned de-escallation as an alternative to an unplanned catastrophic collapse and/or descent into some post-prosperity feudalistic gilded era in which a vanishingly small fraction of global haves might enjoy something approximating present high-consumption lifestyles but the overwhelming majority do not and never will ... is ignoring the fundamental reality of the degrowth / steady state argument which is that planetary boundaries exist. There are limits to resource availability, as we've known for a long time, as well as to sink capacities --- the ability of the environment to absorb the effluvia of our activities without undergoing a catastrophic shift.

There are also quite probably systemic responses, including (though I'd suggest not limited to) the emergence of global epidemics and pandemics of disease and dysfunction. Kyle Harper's recent book, The Fate of Rome, advances the case that diseases co-evolve with civilisation. This itself becomes an interesting counterpoint to the well-worn argument that science, technology, and progress have relieved humans of the evils of infectious disease. It was progress, population growth, commerce, and urbanisation which created those plagues in the first place. As Jarred Diamond noted in Guns, Germs, and Steel, it was the Old World with its crowded cities and vast commercial networks which introduced plagues to the New (with a very few possible exceptions, and those largely very slow-moving insults).

Though of course, diseases of the tropics were well-known. Those however are overwhelmingly zoonotic and parasite-based rather than trasmitting directly between humans, and reflect the same dynamics (huge populations and intense intercourse) though of other species, typically insects. Diseases of sanitation and hygiene, notably cholera, would be the other principle exception, though that was introduced to Europe largely from the Indian subcontinent.

Again, the point isn't that degrowth is an option to BAU, it's an option to a far worse collapse or oppressive wealth concentration with massive disenfranchisement. The fact that discussing the issue in these terms an on this basis is so readily derailed is itself among the profound challenges in achieving a non-worst-case outcome. I've pointed before to the work of William Ophuls (Ecology and the Politics of Scarcity, Plato's Revenge) and Thomas Homer-Dixon (various) before, I'll recommend them without reservation here again.

Re: The Case for Degrowth

#49
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There also doesn't seem to be wide awareness that the degrowth people are currently intentionally sabotaging farming output. Sri Lankas food crisis is due to a forced stop in artificial fertilizer use and growth of only organic crops, and there are likewise farmer protests in the Netherlands (5th largest food producer), Belgium, Germany etc due to the governments pushing this. Closer to home the "inflation reduction…

Sometimes people just have to see the result of a policy to get it.

Indeed. The problem is that all of us who already know "degrowth" is bad are going to have to suffer through the result along with them.

Re: The Case for Degrowth

#50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The exact same logic makes nuclear disarmament extremely, almost laughably unlikely.

...given the perpetuation of competitive nation-states.

And while the number of nukes has decreased, the number of nations, fingers on nuclear buttons if you will, has steadily increased ... as has the threat they pose (recently both the US and Russia have tried to demonstrate supersonic nuclear-capable missiles. And while neither nation currently appears capable of actually carrying out a strike using such means, obviously they're both not that far from a working system)
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