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The semantic web is dead – Long live the semantic web

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Re: The semantic web is dead – Long live the semantic web

#61
Building a trust relationship between commercial entities isn't automatable; it nearly always requires a contract to be carefully hand-written and argued over by high-priced lawyers before any meaningful exchange of value can take place.

Sure, this is an unfortunate level of friction, and overkill in many cases, but think about it from a cost/benefit perspective: I can spend $10k on legal fees and successfully avoid not just a lot of uncertainty, but very infrequently, the contract also protects me from losses that can be orders of magnitude larger than it cost me to negotiate the contract.

Re: The semantic web is dead – Long live the semantic web

#62
post #55
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The point here is that in semantic web there're supposed to be lots and lots of different ontologies/schemas by design, often describing the same data." Then that is just another reason it will fail. We already have islands of data. The problem with those islands of data is not that we don't have a unified expression of the data, the problem is the meaning is isolated. The lack of a single input format is little mor…

so if it tries to have a unified ontology that's why it's destined to fail, but if it's designed to working with many small ontologies… that's why it will fail! lol, but you can't have it both ways. In SW, the "semantic" part is subjective to an interpreter. You can have different data sources, partially mapped using owl to the ontology that an interpreter (your program) understands. That allows you to integrate new…

> if it tries to have a unified ontology that's why it's destined to fail, but if it's designed to working with many small ontologies… that's why it will fail! lol, but you can't have it both ways.

You're only supposed to say "you can have it both ways" about contradictory things. It can both be a hopeless endeavor because it is impossible to agree on ontologies and a useless endeavor if you don't agree on ontologies.

Re: The semantic web is dead – Long live the semantic web

#63
The answer to almost any question beginning with "why don't they" (or why didn't they), is almost always "money".

Producing, aggregating, storing, or otherwise adding value to information costs money. Operating the internet costs money. Providing access to data costs money.

People are lazy. Businesses on the internet have learned that they can extract more money from this vast pool of lazy people by presenting information rather than just providing information. By this, I mean that the value-add and/or lock-in of many internet businesses is tied to how the information is presented; adopting a standard format would be effort that would not be financially rewarded.

(by "lazy", I mean "looking for local minima in effort to accomplish whatever task that they're trying to do")

Finally, the web envisioned itself as a hypermedia system that incorporated presentation (and subsequently active content) instead of just semantic content. Since presentation is a property of the web, it was quickly adopted for the reasons described above and evolved into the modern web (which replaced the blink tag with shit tons of javascript, don't get me started).

Therefore the "semantic web" could never exist because "semantics" is fundamentally incompatible with "web". Once you invent the web, you can't have the semantic web anymore because money.

We shoulda stuck with gopher.

Re: The semantic web is dead – Long live the semantic web

#64

Semantic web is data science for the browser. Most people can’t even figure out how to architect HTML/JS without a colossal tool to do it for them, so figuring out data science architecture in the browser is a huge ask.

There are two camps,

one that thinks you should use tools to generate HTML/JS and those tools should generate strict XML and any extra semantic data. The problem is that the actual users of these tools either don't care, or know about semantic HTML nor semantic data.

Then the other camp that thinks HTML should be written by hand which makes it small, simple and semantic (layout and design separated into CSS) without any div elements. Hand-writing the semantic data in addition to the semantic HTML becomes too burdensome.

Re: The semantic web is dead – Long live the semantic web

#65
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

so if it tries to have a unified ontology that's why it's destined to fail, but if it's designed to working with many small ontologies… that's why it will fail! lol, but you can't have it both ways. In SW, the "semantic" part is subjective to an interpreter. You can have different data sources, partially mapped using owl to the ontology that an interpreter (your program) understands. That allows you to integrate new…

> if it tries to have a unified ontology that's why it's destined to fail, but if it's designed to working with many small ontologies… that's why it will fail! lol, but you can't have it both ways. You're only supposed to say "you can have it both ways" about contradictory things. It can both be a hopeless endeavor because it is impossible to agree on ontologies and a useless endeavor if you don't agree on ontologies…

Oh, I would like to see a look on your face when just in about 100-200 years from now it will be mature enough for a "web scale".

Re: The semantic web is dead – Long live the semantic web

#67
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The benefit is ontological cohesion across the whole web This has no benefit for the person who has to pay to do the work. Why would I pay someone to mark up all my data, just for the greater good? When humans are looking/using my products, none of this is visible. It's not built into any tools, it doesn't get me more SEO, and it doesn't get me any more sales.

Why are people editing Wikipedia and Wikidata? What would it bring you if your products were globally linked to that knowledge graph and Google's machines would understand that metadata from the tiny JSON-LD snippet on each page? The tools are here already, the tech is evolving still, but the knowledge graph concept is going to affect web shop owners too soon enough.

It’s unclear to me at this point why people are contributing to Wikipedia and certainly wikidata, but they’re getting something out of it (perhaps notoriety), and a lot probably has to do with contributing to the greater good. It’s all non profit. The rest of the web is unlike these stand out projects.

Meanwhile, why would say Mouser or Airbnb pay someone to markup their docs? WebMD? Clearly nothing has been compelling them to do so thus far, and when you’re talking about harvesting data and using it elsewhere, it’s a difficult argument to make. Google already gets them plenty of traffic without these efforts.

Re: The semantic web is dead – Long live the semantic web

#69
While I love the semantic web I see two major issues with it:

1. Standardization in regards of (globally) unique identifiers and ontologies. Most things un the semantic web have multiple identifiers and, based on personal preferences, attributes linked to different ontologies. There's several projects that try to gather data for the same thing from various ontologies, but sometimes the same attributes have differing values because of conversions or simply extracting data points from different publications where different methods have been used to measure stuff.

2. Performance of large datasets gets really bad since distributing graphs is still a problem that lacks good solutions. One of the solutions is to store data in distributed column stores. But there's still a ton of unsolved graph traversal performance issues.

I strongly believe that the technological batriers need to be solved first. Until then there will always be the person in meetings, asking why not use relational or NoSql tech because of performance...

Re: The semantic web is dead – Long live the semantic web

#70
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if it tries to have a unified ontology that's why it's destined to fail, but if it's designed to working with many small ontologies… that's why it will fail! lol, but you can't have it both ways. You're only supposed to say "you can have it both ways" about contradictory things. It can both be a hopeless endeavor because it is impossible to agree on ontologies and a useless endeavor if you don't agree on ontologies…

Oh, I would like to see a look on your face when just in about 100-200 years from now it will be mature enough for a "web scale".

Just 200 years around the corner.
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