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“Autistic people can’t acknowledge when they’re wrong”

the.scapegoat.dev

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Re: “Autistic people can’t acknowledge when they’re wrong”

#301
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

thanks for reading, author here! the article is very much a response to a blame already expressed. People can be wrong about factual things, which can be verified. Otherwise it’s a difference of opinions. These are my thoughts on why differences of opinions get phrased as “autistic people just can’t admit when they are wrong”, when myself and most autistic people I know in fact readily admit when we are wrong and mov…

The thing is, at least in the first example, the way I read it isn't "autistic people can't admit when they are wrong". From your own telling of the story it seems like a manager asked you "Should we rewrite the checkout page in React?", and you responded with "Should we rewrite the checkout page in React?". You failed to realize that all of the questions you asked them are the question they were asking YOU. They've…

The questions you bring up are really the questions I am asking?

What do they think the weaknesses of the page are? Do they think rewriting the checkout will solve these problems? How much of the technical tradeoffs do they understand or care about?

To recap:

   Is our checkout page not performing well?
   
   Will a new checkout solve our problem?
   
   Why do they think a technology change is a solution?
  
   Do they understand the implications of such a switch?

Otherwise I won't be able to assess if react makes sense or not. It makes sense for some reasons, not for others. If I don't know why they think we should consider it, I can't provide a valuable answer. These are exactly the points you are bringing up as well: I don't know, and I need your input to clarify what we are trying to do.

I understand there is a communication problem, but I'm most definitely not refusing to accept I am wrong.

I haven't even stated anything that could be wrong. And because I have fully put the blame on myself, after this particular interaction, the fact that I am able to work perfectly fine at a very strategic level with other stakeholders in my new job shows me that it's not just about me.

Re: “Autistic people can’t acknowledge when they’re wrong”

#302
post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for reading. I agree, this article is about the times when things escalated, and I didn’t think I was wrong, or more precisely, didn’t even get to the point where I could be wrong. When I’m wrong I just say “oh you’re right, good point” and move on. It’s very easy to do.

I have a girlfriend who believes herself to be on the autism spectrum, and I cannot over years ever recall her admitting that she was wrong or apologizing at any time for anything. We do get along despite that, but I was kind of hoping for insight.

This does sound odd, but if it works for you... My examples are definitely all about the workplace.

Re: “Autistic people can’t acknowledge when they’re wrong”

#303
post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think "allistic communication patterns" very effectively conveys what they are referring to ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Allistic communication patterns aren't homogenous. And I think the phrasing is very clinical. It is effective but the tone is not very welcoming. I think it's a fair critique of the writing. I would have written something like, "Allistic people communicate in a way that causes friction in understanding by autistic people, and vice versa, and this leads to a slowdown in the workplace for everyone."

Good point, thanks!

Re: “Autistic people can’t acknowledge when they’re wrong”

#304
post #242
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, the example about rewriting a page in React really stood out to me for this. He says "I entertained the question in good faith" but he was clearly just asking "gotcha" questions to try and show the manager what a stupid question it was. And it may very well have been a stupid question, but as you said, he didn't even attempt to understand his manager's perspective. I can totally understand why his manager got f…

Author here. I am curious how these are gotcha questions? To me they are the proper questions to ask, as a manager, they probably don’t care about react or vue or any other framework, they care about conversions and revenue and other metrics. That’s exactly what I want to understand, so that I can contextualize and see if React might or might not make sense. Reasons why React might actually make sense, to show I didn…

Everything you said here makes the response you put in the blog post even more strange. If you already knew about all of the positive aspects of switching to React in this instance, why on Earth did you start off with "Is our checkout page not performing well?"

Obviously there are also drawbacks, but you immediately started off from an adversarial position as if it was just a completely off the wall idea. Clearly that's not the case.

Re: “Autistic people can’t acknowledge when they’re wrong”

#305
post #50

> I needed to understand why our checkout had to be improved; I explained that technology choices made no difference to the user. However, the manager interpreted my words as outright rejecting their idea. That's an exceptionally patronising position to take. The manager almost certainly isn't a fool, and likely understands the author's point already. It's much more likely that the manager was actually asking if the…

Author here, thanks for reading. That is exactly the first question I would ask. If you ask me to make something better, I need to know what you mean by “better”. That’s where a productive discussion start, when we align the goals (and I don’t really care about them, they all turn into interesting technical challenges) and then discuss strategy (amongst which there is technology). If me asking what the goal is is per…

> I need to know what you mean by “better”. That’s where a productive discussion start, when we align the goals (and I don’t really care about them, they all turn into interesting technical challenges

I think you have answered your own conscience.

You say you don't care about the goals. The only thing you care about is whether the tech is interesting to you or not, which is purely subjective.

Your manager probably already knows this. He knows you are asking a question to which you completely don't care about the answer. It's just that you're not interested.

There is a clear difference between asking questions to learn — and trolling. This is easily visible to any human.

I'll be honest: If you are expecting 100% fulfillment, then it most likely means you have an impossibly high opinion of yourself. If you really wish that, become a freelancer, then go ahead and reject everything you hear. At work, nobody needs to convince your heart and soul for every single thing. Deal with it.

Re: “Autistic people can’t acknowledge when they’re wrong”

#306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Asking a trusted domain expert for an opinion about whether some technical investment would benefit the business. Sure, that's good management - ask the expert. But this manager didn't want to clarify the question, so that the expert could give a considered answer. Perhaps the manager already knew what answer he wanted? There's this estimating technique: it's called "Guess the number the manager wants you to give".…

The author has not even attempted to paraphrase or summarize the manager's response, so this is also guess-work on your part. Conversely, if I ask a colleague, however smart, a question but their response is "first I need a 10min infodump on things many of which I should already be aware of", I'm just going to say "nevermind then, thanks" and go ask the colleague who can communicate in a more focused and proactive wa…

I like where you’re coming from, it’s just this specific example - should we rewrite stuff in react - really strikes me as something an engineering manager shouldn’t be asking. “I heard about this implementation detail and wonder if we should be doing it like that.” Just much prefer a boss who can parse those questions himself

Re: “Autistic people can’t acknowledge when they’re wrong”

#307
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Author here, thanks for reading. That is exactly the first question I would ask. If you ask me to make something better, I need to know what you mean by “better”. That’s where a productive discussion start, when we align the goals (and I don’t really care about them, they all turn into interesting technical challenges) and then discuss strategy (amongst which there is technology). If me asking what the goal is is per…

> I need to know what you mean by “better”. That’s where a productive discussion start, when we align the goals (and I don’t really care about them, they all turn into interesting technical challenges I think you have answered your own conscience. You say you don't care about the goals. The only thing you care about is whether the tech is interesting to you or not, which is purely subjective. Your manager probably al…

I am not sure why you are so aggressive, nor reading my words charitably. I do care about solving the technical challenges to fulfill the goals in the best way possible. I don't care what the goal is "about," if the business wants to target a specific vertical or wants to grow internationally or wants to prioritize backend tooling. I care about knowing the goal and then doing the best work possible. This is the opposite of trolling.

Re: “Autistic people can’t acknowledge when they’re wrong”

#308
In one of my first jobs (an internship actually), I had a great manager who introduced me to the concept of active communication. While unfortunately the internet has some terrible articles about the subject, the actual idea behind it is taking responsibility for the whole communication process. I find it is extremely helpful for coming across clearly and effectively, especially as a person on the spectrum.

In the case of a disagreement, basically start out trying to figure out where the other person's head is at with open ended, exploratory questions (stuff like "what are you looking to achieve?" or "why do you feel this is the case?"). Avoid accusatory questions like "what makes you think that?" or "do you think X is bad?" Expressing humility by, for example, stating that you don't understand something before asking them to explain their view of it helps.

Once you know their starting position, instead of simply speaking at them, instead guide them to reach the conclusion for themselves. Repeat information they've already accepted as true frequently ask them what these givens imply.

Always maintain an off ramp. If someone initially disagreed with you, odds are at some point you're going to find a sticking point where one of you is either factually incorrect or you have fundamentally different judgements. This normally is where discussion turns into argument. Give people an opportunity to save face - something like "you know I only very recently learned myself that this isn't actually true" or "you would think that's the case but there's this unintuitive gotcha in this instance" allows a person to change their position without calling their general intelligence or expertise into question. In the case of a judgement disagreement, something like "let's pretend for a moment that you desire this" let's them move forward without having to actually confront the disconnect. If someone is fatigued or aggravated, make sure there's a way for them to blow off steam, for example something like "you're making some good points, I'd like to double check my info, can we revisit this later" let's them walk away feeling good and makes you look humble while also giving them leeway to be more agreeable when you do eventually bring it back up.

At the same time, always be responsive to the other person. If they are interjecting, let them speak and take note of what they say. Again it's more important that they feel they've explained their reasoning than that you lay the groundwork for yours. When they legitimately bring up good points, acknowledge them; when it seems like they are holding something back, probe a bit; if their train of thought goes off on a tangent, explore it. While this might sound a bit tedious, especially if you already have a pretty good idea of what specific points you need to convey, a lot of people care more about being heard than the particulars of what they are saying. Ultimately, reel them back in after they've made their point and modify the logic path you're taking them along accordingly.

After guiding them through the thought process, then confirm that you have communicated your point by having them repeat back to you their current understanding. If your message was successfully communicated, it should be readily apparent. If not, it should still be evident where the miscommunication is occurring. Recursively repeat the process until the message is completely communicated. You may still not agree in the end, but both of you should be well aware as to why you disagree.

Re: “Autistic people can’t acknowledge when they’re wrong”

#309
post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what is the point of dismissing someones Autism purely based on a single blog post and one person you knew? Are you actually trying to convey something helpful here?

I'm not dismissing anyone's anything. I believe autism exists. > one person you knew? I've only known one person who was diagnosed autistic. It's a rare condition; I've known a dozen people with bipolar, and half-a-dozen diagnosed schizophrenics (either I'm attracted to psychotics, or they're attracted to me!) My point was simply that author's account could be anyone's account, apart from the author's self-identifica…

It's not a secret that autistic people have trouble communicating in the workplace. This is not a post about my life's story and me self-diagnosing as autistic. This is me relating my experience explicitly in response to someone saying something about autistic people.

Self-diagnosis is widely accepted in the autistic community for a number of reasons, I am also in the process of pursuing a more "traditional" diagnosis.

It's great that you think this post applies to everybody, it however is very much in response to someone stigmatizing autistic people.

Re: “Autistic people can’t acknowledge when they’re wrong”

#310
post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing is, at least in the first example, the way I read it isn't "autistic people can't admit when they are wrong". From your own telling of the story it seems like a manager asked you "Should we rewrite the checkout page in React?", and you responded with "Should we rewrite the checkout page in React?". You failed to realize that all of the questions you asked them are the question they were asking YOU. They've…

The questions you bring up are really the questions I am asking? What do they think the weaknesses of the page are? Do they think rewriting the checkout will solve these problems? How much of the technical tradeoffs do they understand or care about? To recap: Is our checkout page not performing well? Will a new checkout solve our problem? Why do they think a technology change is a solution? Do they understand the imp…

Obviously I wasn't there and am going by your accounting of the conversation, but from the way you laid it out, the questions I brought up are the questions your manager thought they were asking you. Hence the confusion, followed by frustration.

From my interpretation of the conversation, you thought the question was: "Should we rewrite the checkout page in React, yes or no?" And responded with "Why do you want to rewrite it in React?" (paraphrasing)

Meanwhile the manager thought they were asking: "Please discuss the reasons why we should and should not rewrite the checkout page in React, including your recommendation on a course of action" And you responded with "Why do you want to rewrite it in React?"

Spelled out like that it's hopefully a little clearer that the "why React" was part of the question. They don't know if the page is performing "well" or whatever that means (even from an engineering standpoint it's hard to define, render time? bandwidth? server CPU?). They might know if users are complaining about checkout being slow, but even then users tend to leave rather than complain. If you were to tell them that the checkout page was performing "poorly" and React could fix it, that's the kind of information they were hoping to obtain from this conversation.

Similarly in my machine learning question, my CIO was actually asking me "how do you think machine learning can benefit this business?" And I responded with "how do you think machine learning can benefit the business?" He didn't know, he was asking me. He had just heard about the wonders of machine learning and was fishing for how it could benefit this business. Just like your manager had heard about React and was fishing for how it could benefit the business.

If your manager were here replying to comments I'd advise them to remember that engineers in general (spectrum or not), tend to be the literal sort, and if you aren't getting the answers your looking for it's often useful to examine the words you used and ask if you are actually asking the question your hoping to get answered or relying on subtext. But for the engineer's side of this conversation, it's important to ask if the question your answering is actually what they are asking, or if you failed to parse their intentions.

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