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'Too many employees, but few work': Pichai, Zuckerberg sound the alarm

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Re: 'Too many employees, but few work': Pichai, Zuckerberg sound the alarm

#91
Glad these guys seem to finally be noticing.

I was a software engineering manager at a lean, high-margin, profitable start-up based in the NYC area starting in the late 2000s. We were acquired in 2014 by a very typical (for the time) SV-based competitor that had raised hundreds of millions in an IPO a few years earlier. Our acquirers had yet to see a single quarter of profit, of course.

I and my team had so many good laughs at the attitudes of our CA counterparts. One especially strong memory is when, a week after a particularly dismal quarterly earnings report, a junior engineer based in the HQ of our new corporate overlords sent out a team-wide email complaining about the corporate decision to no longer stock the refrigerators with free fresh blueberries. They bemoaned the lack of respect for the "talent," and tossed in gratis the ubiquitous pseudo-threat "if you don't treat us right, we can always go down the road to an employer who will."

On visits to HQ in Redwood City, I marveled at the paradisaical campus-like setting (several buildings around a "quad," with parks, a tennis court, swimming pool, gyms, etc. etc.) and noted the amount of time the local staff spent taking advantage of these amenities. I remember the engineers on my team from HQ explaining to me that my proposed stand-up meeting schedule wouldn't work beacuse their intramural basketball league scheduled their games for that time. Meanwhile, in our low-perqs atmosphere in NY, distractions were limited and productivity was high. We also all made money.

Since that was Silicon Valley during one of the many gold rushes, I thought that I must have been "missing something." What seemed like common sense to me was clearly heresy to the golden people there. The explanation I arrived at was that such perqs were the necessary counterpart to an expectation that your employees have no life other than work.

I came to realize I wasn't missing anything, they were. That company did end up burning through their cash stockpile, and had to sell a few years later for less than 1/4 of what they paid to acquire us.

Re: 'Too many employees, but few work': Pichai, Zuckerberg sound the alarm

#92
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s no way you can sustain 8 hours/day of productive work 5 days a week as a developer. It’s not working a field or packing boxes, there’s a mental component that gets exhausted over time.

Biglaw attorneys routinely bill 2200 hours a year in 6 minute increments. Add in nonbillable work and self-written off time, and many of these attorneys work 60+ hour weeks. Plus, they do this into their 50’s.

6 minutes billed is rarely the same thing as 6 minutes worked.

Re: 'Too many employees, but few work': Pichai, Zuckerberg sound the alarm

#93
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I thought it was a widely-known-secret that at least part of the insane hiring of engineers without clear teams, projects, etc for them to work on initially was to prevent individuals working for current-or-potential competitors. I've heard this claimed but not sourced, and it doesn't really make sense - there are millions of software engineers out there and Google or Meta only employ a tiny fraction of them.

> Google or Meta only employ a tiny fraction of them Yes, but they are competing for the same tiny fraction.

Fighting for scraps that algotrading funds and seed-level start-ups left :).

Re: 'Too many employees, but few work': Pichai, Zuckerberg sound the alarm

#94
post #22

This seems like something that should be expected? Every time the WFH battle has come up over the last few years, there are always people talking about how they’re able to do all their days work in 4 hours and spend the rest of the time idle “pretending to work”. Is it really surprising that as a result of this companies are reevaluating how much slack time their employees have? Especially as wages and demand for wag…

The difference between working from home and working in the office is not how many hours of productive work you do, it's in what you do with the rest of the day. Every single study done on it shows that creative staff (including engineers) are more productive working where they are less disturbed, that open-plan offices are the least productive environment, etc. So it's utterly unsurprising that people get more produ…

So is it a question of the work day or where you work from?

Re: 'Too many employees, but few work': Pichai, Zuckerberg sound the alarm

#95
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are mistaken. 100,000 of the best out of a pool of approximately 10 million professional software engineers worldwide is a sizeable portion. Additionally, not all 10 million are even close to being up to BigCorps peculiar standards (perhaps the standard is "someone competent enough that they could potentially build a competing product line"). Goog, Meta, Amazon, Apple, Oracle.. all have huge rosters and it adds u…

Everyone claims they hire the best. For a long time Google and others had atypical hiring practices which they have since abandoned. I suspect this is because they discovered the techniques were less effective than originally thought. So 'best' by what measure?

I've worked with some really good engineers who came out of google, but I've worked with far more that were extremely arrogant but could not actually get anything done. One of the startups I worked at got an "advisor" from Google (as part of a startup program) that probably set us further back than it ever helped. Anytime this guy didn't understand something he just got extremely belligerent instead of actually trying to get the problem. In general his advice was ignored because it didn't make sense, and he never delivered on any of the promises he made. Not to harp on this guy, as he's just one example amongst many, but it's reached the point where if I see google engineers on the founding team for a company I typically won't consider working for them.

It turns out that being able to solve cute little puzzles while interviewing doesn't really help with systems level thinking.

Re: 'Too many employees, but few work': Pichai, Zuckerberg sound the alarm

#96

I'm a bit worried that this will trigger some kind of move to measure productivity in increasingly crude ways -- i.e. exhaustive, invasive telemetry that tracks every mouse click and keypress.

IMO In-person five days a week is preferable to dystopian tracking automation, not that they're mutually exclusive.

Re: 'Too many employees, but few work': Pichai, Zuckerberg sound the alarm

#97
post #50
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are mistaken. 100,000 of the best out of a pool of approximately 10 million professional software engineers worldwide is a sizeable portion. Additionally, not all 10 million are even close to being up to BigCorps peculiar standards (perhaps the standard is "someone competent enough that they could potentially build a competing product line"). Goog, Meta, Amazon, Apple, Oracle.. all have huge rosters and it adds u…

Arguably that's Google and Meta's strategy (maybe even Apple) but that's certainly not Amazon's. They just mass hire anyone without a care in the world. Not sure if Oracle even belongs in this group.

It definitely wasn't Meta's strategy when I was there in 2018. They hired a lot of junior software engineers but all other positions had relatively limited headcount (which I mostly think is a good thing).

Re: 'Too many employees, but few work': Pichai, Zuckerberg sound the alarm

#98
post #56

Why is Netflix part of FAANG? Isn’t all the other ones much larger corporations?

When the acronym was coined, Netflix was in the process of disrupting the entire entertainment industry and it looked for all the world like it was going to eat them all. As it happened, the industry (well, Disney and HBO at least) figured things out faster than expected, so much of the speculation on Netflix turned out to be wrong. But they absolutely were a Top of the World tech innovator for a while there. But it'…

> Top of the World tech innovator

Yes, top reason an average enterprise developer has to deal with a distributed mess as opposed to a more manageable monolithic one: "we will do microservices despite being nothing like Netflix". On the upside, more developers are now required.

Re: 'Too many employees, but few work': Pichai, Zuckerberg sound the alarm

#99
post #22

This seems like something that should be expected? Every time the WFH battle has come up over the last few years, there are always people talking about how they’re able to do all their days work in 4 hours and spend the rest of the time idle “pretending to work”. Is it really surprising that as a result of this companies are reevaluating how much slack time their employees have? Especially as wages and demand for wag…

There’s no way you can sustain 8 hours/day of productive work 5 days a week as a developer. It’s not working a field or packing boxes, there’s a mental component that gets exhausted over time.

And more than that - it's abstract problem solving. Sometimes the problem is never gonna have an answer until I am washing my dishes after breakfast tomorrow. My subconscious & creativity can't be sped up.

It's this idiocy that you can convert time into software at a fixed rate that got us into this mess.

Re: 'Too many employees, but few work': Pichai, Zuckerberg sound the alarm

#100
post #22

This seems like something that should be expected? Every time the WFH battle has come up over the last few years, there are always people talking about how they’re able to do all their days work in 4 hours and spend the rest of the time idle “pretending to work”. Is it really surprising that as a result of this companies are reevaluating how much slack time their employees have? Especially as wages and demand for wag…

The difference between working from home and working in the office is not how many hours of productive work you do, it's in what you do with the rest of the day. Every single study done on it shows that creative staff (including engineers) are more productive working where they are less disturbed, that open-plan offices are the least productive environment, etc. So it's utterly unsurprising that people get more produ…

> Every single study done on it shows that creative staff (including engineers) are more productive working where they are less disturbed, that open-plan offices are the least productive environment, etc.

Do you have any specific sources on hand (preferably a good meta-study)? I've heard this claim a lot, and I'd like it to be true, but I've never seen it sourced. Also, I feel like it could depend a lot on the individual, but anecdote is not data.

And yes, open-plan offices truly suck.

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