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“Autistic people can’t acknowledge when they’re wrong”

the.scapegoat.dev

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Re: “Autistic people can’t acknowledge when they’re wrong”

#211

Post by larve »

mort96 wrote: post #183
scotty79 wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or hear me out. Maybe allistic people could learn to interact with autistic people since they'll be meeting a lot of them in IT. Those are not hard skills to learn, like patiently responding to questions before jumping to conclusions about what the person you are talking to thinks about this and that.

This is the typical "improve society vs improve yourself" discourse. We should absolutely be in favor of changing society to make neurodivergent people's lives easier. This requires changing education policy, as well as increasing the diversity of communities so that children get more experience communicating with more kinds of people, and it'll probably take a few generations at the least before we start seeing majo…

Author here. I agree, and both approaches are not exclusive.

But I think you underestimate how much effort autistic people put into improving our soft skills in order to survive. In fact, I learned to be so good at social occasions that I never thought I could be autistic, given how many colleagues value me and how many friends I have and make. I reflect here upon situations where all these improved soft skills didn’t help however, and try to understand what might be going on.

Re: “Autistic people can’t acknowledge when they’re wrong”

#212

Post by shlant »

W4ldi wrote: post #12

It's called narcissistic entitlement to expect the whole world to change their behaviour because of ones own inability to fit in. I'm not saying it is fair. Life is never fair. The only one who has the ability to influence those situations is oneself. You can't rely on other to change - it won't work anyways. You have to be the one that improves those interactions. For your own good.

> expect the whole world to change their behaviour

Who is saying this? The article provides a perspective that is not discussed very often as a way of helping people understand these situations from a vantage point they might not have considered. Nobody is demanding anything.

Re: “Autistic people can’t acknowledge when they’re wrong”

#213

Post by Bedon292 »

throwawaylinux wrote: post #161
larve wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

thanks for reading, author here! the article is very much a response to a blame already expressed. People can be wrong about factual things, which can be verified. Otherwise it’s a difference of opinions. These are my thoughts on why differences of opinions get phrased as “autistic people just can’t admit when they are wrong”, when myself and most autistic people I know in fact readily admit when we are wrong and mov…

People can also be objectively wrong when it comes to social interactions as well though. To give an example, if someone who is less technical asks you a question that does not give enough background information to give a precise technical answer on, the wrong thing to do is respond by first simply asking questions back at them. Particularly if the questions could be difficult for them to immediately see how it relat…

I don't know if I go so far as to say objectively wrong but definitely felt off. And other approaches would probably have been better.

If it is a question: "Should we do X?" They are asking for an opinion about if it should be done or at least some sort of conversation. Not asking for you to make a decision. Just state an opinion based on what you know and follow up. "I doubt it, it would be a large investment of resources that may not lead to noticeable improvements. Why?"

Is it rude to ask why someone is asking though? Understanding context can be good. It might be fine to ask something like "Why do you ask?" to get it started, before answering. Then, if relevant, follow up with those in depth questions. But just jumping into technical details feels like they are meant to shut the initiator down.

If they come to you and say: "I think we should do X." Then those questions make more sense. "Why?" is still probably enough though. Let them elaborate on their thought process. And if it really is just they say something about it in a blog. You can explain the trade offs and guide them with your knowledge.

Re: “Autistic people can’t acknowledge when they’re wrong”

#214

Post by shlant »

denton-scratch wrote: post #122
musingsole wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're reading more into this piece than is there. The author never advocates that the rest of the world should change. This post only claims that these miscommunication scenarios between experts on the autistic spectrum and allistic people HAPPEN. They happen to me too. Understanding the nature of the miscommunication is the first step towards averting it in the future.

> They happen to me too. And me. I'm not autistic. I don't think I have any kind of Asperger's either. I didn't see anything in author's prose that suggested autism; it just sounded like a normie, perhaps with an autism diagnosis, who is fretting about communication with their boss. There seems to be quite a few commenters here making critical comments, as if author is failing to communicate effectively. I wonder if…

what is the point of dismissing someones Autism purely based on a single blog post and one person you knew? Are you actually trying to convey something helpful here?

Re: “Autistic people can’t acknowledge when they’re wrong”

#215

Post by larve »

antasvara wrote: post #190
larve wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

thanks for reading, author here! the article is very much a response to a blame already expressed. People can be wrong about factual things, which can be verified. Otherwise it’s a difference of opinions. These are my thoughts on why differences of opinions get phrased as “autistic people just can’t admit when they are wrong”, when myself and most autistic people I know in fact readily admit when we are wrong and mov…

>People can be wrong about factual things, which can be verified. Otherwise it’s a difference of opinions. What doesn't come across in your article is that you can be wrong about factual things. It is unclear or unmentioned that you actually can be wrong sometimes. These communication patterns make sense with what I know about people. I don't doubt that they happen relatively frequently, and can result in a situation…

Author here, thanks for the feedback. This article is indeed edited down heavily. I had more conversational drafts.

Your remark is something I have been thinking about. For me, it’s patently evident that I’m wrong about 90% of the time when discussing facts. In fact, “truth” is one of my core values, and the only way I can honor that (and be a good engineer) is to question my every statement. That’s why I write unit tests, run experiments, read so many books, etc…

When I know something is true, I tend to only state it once, because why would I need to repeat it. I am starting to realize this doesn’t work out that well :)

These articles are in themselves a series of experiments to see how I can convey these thoughts.

Re: “Autistic people can’t acknowledge when they’re wrong”

#216

Post by cloverich »

h2odragon wrote: post #58
q-big wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The author may also benefit from investing some of their mental capital (I'm not being sarcastic, they're obviously very intelligent) into learning how to play the games I am not aware of any good systematic textbooks on this topic. (of course not the author)

This is a classic for good reasons: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_to_Win_Friends_and_Influen...

I still remember reading this and the impact it had on me at the time (I was ~20). Its funny looking back, in a way its such a cheesy and outdated book. I'm sure there are many better ones now. And I don't have problems with the kinds of conversations it talks about there anymore. But I still remember very clearly reading and having an epiphany in that book, and suddenly I could talk to people again. Strangers even. It was a definite turning point in life for me personally. Being able to act a little more normal goes a long way when you can't be normal on your own.

Re: “Autistic people can’t acknowledge when they’re wrong”

#217

Post by ThrustVectoring »

"You can't acknowledge when you're wrong" isn't about whether or not you're actually wrong, whether or not you acknowledge it, or even about you, really. It's often a social ploy to make your agreement unnecessary for the rest of the group to commit to collective understanding and action. "Oh, Jim just can't admit when he's wrong" lets the rest of the group use a "consensus of people we think are behaving reasonably" instead of actual consensus.

(The biggest other thing this can be is a complaint that the victim doesn't let the complainant win enough arguments, and that the audience should consider more of the arguments won without the victim conceding and with an extra penalty of being seen as a sore loser.)

Re: “Autistic people can’t acknowledge when they’re wrong”

#218

Post by kderbyma »

denton-scratch wrote: post #122
musingsole wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're reading more into this piece than is there. The author never advocates that the rest of the world should change. This post only claims that these miscommunication scenarios between experts on the autistic spectrum and allistic people HAPPEN. They happen to me too. Understanding the nature of the miscommunication is the first step towards averting it in the future.

> They happen to me too. And me. I'm not autistic. I don't think I have any kind of Asperger's either. I didn't see anything in author's prose that suggested autism; it just sounded like a normie, perhaps with an autism diagnosis, who is fretting about communication with their boss. There seems to be quite a few commenters here making critical comments, as if author is failing to communicate effectively. I wonder if…

spectrum......

Re: “Autistic people can’t acknowledge when they’re wrong”

#219

Post by larve »

camtarn wrote: post #157
larve wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

thanks for reading, author here! the article is very much a response to a blame already expressed. People can be wrong about factual things, which can be verified. Otherwise it’s a difference of opinions. These are my thoughts on why differences of opinions get phrased as “autistic people just can’t admit when they are wrong”, when myself and most autistic people I know in fact readily admit when we are wrong and mov…

I feel like the article isn't actually directly addressing its title. It could be stronger with some situations to when you were wrong, with examples of how that was swiftly resolved, as you mentioned in the intro paragraph. At the moment it feels like it takes for granted that you're good at resolving situations where you're objectively wrong, so it's only addressing situations where there was a difference of opinio…

Thank you for the thoughtful comment. I think you are right.

For every “you can’t admit you are wrong” discussion, I must have a 1000 discussions where I just go “oh you’re right” and move on. My default operating mode is being wrong and knowing I am, or knowing that alternative approaches are just as valid, or sometimes less valid but still bring value to the table. This was not easily learnt, but it just leads to better engineering so it’s a no brainer. I brush over it in a single sentence, and this is not enough, as evidenced in some comments here.

I had a much longer first draft, much less focused, and edited it down to crystalline precision. The next article I write about the topic, I will chose the other approach, and see how that resonates.

Thanks!

Re: “Autistic people can’t acknowledge when they’re wrong”

#220

Post by shlant »

engineeringwoke wrote: post #100
mvuijlst wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Heh. "The manager almost certainly isn't a fool, and likely understands the author's point already". Famous last words.

Also a common trope, playing out the "manager" or "business person" as an idiot when in fact often times there are bigger things at play. Looking down on people who aren't like you is not generally a positive. Understanding them is the source of empathy.

to be fair I am seeing very little empathy for the author in a lot of these comments
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