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Learning algebra in my 60s

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141–150 of 158 posts

Re: Learning algebra in my 60s

#141

It's a shame he went to all the trouble of avoiding conventional education (for the wrong reasons), but then still ended up going down an execution rather than concept focused route. As soon as you start memorizing operations and treating math more like a narrow grind only approached through arbitrary problems solved primarily through computation or use of rote application of poorly understood technique, you lose the…

Right. >Fundamental understanding gives exponential results yet most courses try and get the axioms and basics out of the way as fast as possible, working through basic proofs or derivations is cute sideshow, if anything. This is so true. I was exactly like the author. I could not understand any math beyond algebra. Trigonometry was way beyond my ability. But one day, I found an old trig book lying around when I went…

I went through a very similar process. Not moving on, not hand-waiving, not just executing steps before understanding them - it changed the way I learn math and learn and think in general for the better.

One analogy I've come up with to justify this method is that you should not measure your progress by distance covered when traversing terrain of varying elevation. Some days you will be walking up hill, and others downhill. To lament that you covered two miles today but ten yesterday without regard for the energy required to traverse each day's path is often the type of thinking that makes students give up on their math or technical abilities.

Often times when learning something technical, I will spend as much time on one sentence, one line of the proof, as the rest of it. Being honest with my own understanding makes it harder and makes these roadblocks more frequent - but the unquestioning mastery of the topic after the fact is well worth it.

Re: Learning algebra in my 60s

#142
post #47

It's a shame he went to all the trouble of avoiding conventional education (for the wrong reasons), but then still ended up going down an execution rather than concept focused route. As soon as you start memorizing operations and treating math more like a narrow grind only approached through arbitrary problems solved primarily through computation or use of rote application of poorly understood technique, you lose the…

> this is a clear demonstration that a fundamental understanding of fractions was skipped in order to grind out solutions Leaving aside that you concluded this from a one-sentence story about solving a single problem, it's funny that the idea that a "clear understanding of fractions" can make the skills easy to learn is something that virtually every trained teacher has believed for the last (I'm not sure how many) d…

While I don't share your skepticism that school teaching could be improved, I will note that you have done what you accused me of: not reading.

When did I say anything about schools? My sadness at the opportunity lost came from 'avoiding conventional education.'

Re: Learning algebra in my 60s

#143
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very well said! It is true that once you grok this technique, you are basically unstoppable. It does make for slow progress at first, but it's worth it. Edit: I went to grad school for math, and I got there by pretty much doing what you described!

Ok you two have inspired me. I've been wanting to learn math (and relearn college math from decades ago) and I always get bogged down and quit. I'm gonna try it your way.

I am very glad to hear that! Enjoy :)

I recommend the Art of Problem Solving community as a great place to start. I have no affiliation with them, they're just awesome for math learners of all levels.

Re: Learning algebra in my 60s

#144
post #88

It's a shame he went to all the trouble of avoiding conventional education (for the wrong reasons), but then still ended up going down an execution rather than concept focused route. As soon as you start memorizing operations and treating math more like a narrow grind only approached through arbitrary problems solved primarily through computation or use of rote application of poorly understood technique, you lose the…

> you lose the ability to understand math as anything other than a human attempting to be a computer I get what you're saying and it's important, but I also disagree with how you're framing it. It's desirable to get to the point where you can automatically do purely mechanical symbol transformations as you work through a problem, thus saving your higher reasoning for the conceptual problem of searching for which tran…

I don't believe layers should not be built on top of to the point of rarely, or even never thinking about the inner workings again. I just believe that when building those layers, having an intimate relationship in your mind with how they work and relate to each other will have positive effects, even after you start executing steps without regard for their deeper concepts.

That's the case even for just the 'engineer' archetype, who uses math strictly as a tool. For any person doing theoretical work, discovery is often preceded by a fundamental understanding and tweaking of the most basic tools - so I believe the mindset is useful in both cases but borderline necessary for the second.

Re: Learning algebra in my 60s

#145

It's a shame he went to all the trouble of avoiding conventional education (for the wrong reasons), but then still ended up going down an execution rather than concept focused route. As soon as you start memorizing operations and treating math more like a narrow grind only approached through arbitrary problems solved primarily through computation or use of rote application of poorly understood technique, you lose the…

What’s the alternative? How does a neophyte go about cultivating the mindset and understanding you describe?

This person describes an experience similar to the one which inspired my mindset.

https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=As_You_Wish

Re: Learning algebra in my 60s

#146
post #81

It's a shame he went to all the trouble of avoiding conventional education (for the wrong reasons), but then still ended up going down an execution rather than concept focused route. As soon as you start memorizing operations and treating math more like a narrow grind only approached through arbitrary problems solved primarily through computation or use of rote application of poorly understood technique, you lose the…

This is insightful and rings true for me as well. A good blend of theory and practical knowledge is important to get the most out of any education. Do you have any recommendations for learning math this way?

This person describes an experience similar to the one which inspired my mindset.

One other thing to note is that the order you might learn math, even the 'bundles' of math confined to the standard classes, is somewhat arbitrary. If you take on the freedom, you are responsible for the direction. That being said the linear path from arithmetic to Calculus or Linear Algebra, or Vector Calculus (to combine the two) will give you very strong fundamentals and chops that will apply broadly. It feels like once you get some understanding of Vector Calculus you can branch off wherever you want, though many advanced topics past that don't strictly require it, learning to derive concepts in that subject is excellent preparation.

All that said, there are plenty of interesting topics not involving Calculus or Linear Algebra. I really recommend what As_You_Wish has said as being honest with your own understanding and developing deep rigor, even across just one chapter or one sentence, will be your guide. Once you get deeply acquainted with one area, even if just a tiny area like "I finally understand trig functions," you understand better where you can jump off to next.

https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=As_You_Wish

Re: Learning algebra in my 60s

#147
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ...still ended up going down an execution rather than concept focused route. This is something that made me really disappointed when I realized it in school. It was always a step by step process taught to me, and I loved math. I took my AP Calculus class in my senior year of high school and my teacher (fantastic man) showed us how the formula for a derivative is derived. I was blown away. We had just learned and it…

> I took my AP Calculus class in my senior year of high school and my teacher (fantastic man) showed us how the formula for a derivative is derived. This is pretty easy to do for a polynomial term, but much harder for x raised to a non-integer power[1], or sin(x). There is no one way to "derive the formula for a derivative"; different functions have to be analyzed differently. [1] Wikipedia suggests that the simplest…

I'm no math pro, so my terminology is probably way off. I just remember a lot of h(x) in there and showing why that makes sense in the context of what a derivative is.

Re: Learning algebra in my 60s

#148

My litmus test of someone being intelligent or not--among other such tests--is what they say about Shakespeare. This might anger the Brits, but Shakespeare is garbage--and the guy says: "I read .... most of Shakespeare." One famous guy lambasting Shakespeare (Tolstoy) was only marginally smarter, because according to his "Confessions", he read it many times over (incl. in English) and STILL could not find any artisti…

> Jung was not as bright as is commonly believed as well. He once claimed that UFO's were all imaginary-- a sweeping generalization by someone claiming to be scientist-- whereas I for sure know that UFO's are real for I have seen one and to prove that I wasn't seeing things, I had a camcorder ready which recorded the space-ship going vertically up very slowly. I have lost the video though but it certainly happened 20…

"but can't prove it"--- I don't need to prove it to anybody, as long as I have a clear proof of it myself. I am with Descartes when I say my senses did not deceive me, but Jung claims that he can speak for EVERYBODY and EVERYBODY is imagining UFO's...

Re: Learning algebra in my 60s

#149

My litmus test of someone being intelligent or not--among other such tests--is what they say about Shakespeare. This might anger the Brits, but Shakespeare is garbage--and the guy says: "I read .... most of Shakespeare." One famous guy lambasting Shakespeare (Tolstoy) was only marginally smarter, because according to his "Confessions", he read it many times over (incl. in English) and STILL could not find any artisti…

> EDIT: I see I have touched quite a few nerves. It reads like a post you made for yourself, not for the benefit of any reader.

Writing is always primarily of benefit to myself--and hence of any benefit to anyone else....would you cook a meal you wouldn't eat yourself but wish others did? Writing that is geared towards explicitly benefiting others (at the cost of not benefiting our own selves) is shallow, useless and fake.

Re: Learning algebra in my 60s

#150
post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can’t remember the details now, but my recollection was that the unit circle enlightened me that they were ratios. It was even possible to reason about “round” angles (like 90° and 45°), in your head without the need of a calculator. I never tried a random angle like 13° in my head, but I figured it was kind of on a scale between the “round” numbers which I knew, which would give a good sense of the actual number,…

Wasn’t there at least right triangle math for sin = adjacent/hypotenuse and cos = opposite/hypotenuse? This sounds like serious educational malpractice.¹ ⸻ 1. Although when I think about educational malpractice, I remember a program I was teaching in where the director asked me about why the numerator and denominator were called what they were and I explained the denominator identified what kind of fraction (and made…

My recollection is that we were taught the hypotenuse rule earlier in the year, might have even been just before trigonometry, but I have no recollection of being informed of any "connection" between them during school.

We were simply taught which equation to use for particular scenarios and how to use calculators with particular equations.

When you bought it up, I do recall the connection being used by Open University to explain things, which I also found a bit thrilling to learn.

Although only anecdotal evidence, I have asked a few South African colleagues over the years about the unit circle and it seems like none of them were taught it during school, so it seems like it's just not in the curriculums over here, which I feel is a tragedy.

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