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The 1857 Utah War

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Re: The 1857 Utah War

#21
post #2

The article is an interesting take on the time period For one example, I think Porter Rockwell is less considered a lawman, and more of a hitman or enforcer. He's suspected of having a body count somewhere in the 150 range edit: It also completely leaves out the entire Mountain Meadows Massacre incident, where Mormons slaughtered around 120 men women and children in a wagon train headed to California in September of…

Porter Rockwell was dubbed the "Destroying Angel," but he was definitely a bona fide law man. But you're right that there is some evidence that he was also kind of the frontier version of a James Bond type secret service or special forces operative with a license to kill. And his boss was Brigham Young, who was a bit drunk on power. Mountain Meadows is absolutely a disgrace and a scandal that should (and does) taint the reputations of Young and other Mormon leaders of the time, but it's more understandable once you consider the greater context of the Utah war. The Utahns were paranoid and on high alert. And Brigham Young in particular was concerned about being deposed and jailed, so he had an interest in keeping people whipped up.

Re: The 1857 Utah War

#22
post #20

Quoted post unavailable.

I wasn't sure why you were being downvoted so I googled "utah population" and "utah mormon church member count". 2.2M divided by 3.2M --> 70% LDS seems to at least be a dominating factor in that state.

[deleted]

Re: The 1857 Utah War

#23
Wasn't this one of the primary reasons why majority of Mormons live south of Salt Lake? I swear Brigham Young ordered a scorched earth type thing on SLC and most relocated south.

Re: The 1857 Utah War

#25
post #20

Quoted post unavailable.

I wasn't sure why you were being downvoted so I googled "utah population" and "utah mormon church member count". 2.2M divided by 3.2M --> 70% LDS seems to at least be a dominating factor in that state.

Utah legislature is even more lopsided

https://www.sltrib.com/news/politics/2021/01/14/latter-day-s...

> Eighty-nine of the 103 lawmakers to be seated Jan. 19 (with one current vacancy) are members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. That’s 86%. Utah’s population is 60% Latter-day Saint, according to research by The Salt Lake Tribune. Latter-day Saints also hold 100% of the state’s congressional seats and statewide political offices, such as governor.

Re: The 1857 Utah War

#26
post #2

The article is an interesting take on the time period For one example, I think Porter Rockwell is less considered a lawman, and more of a hitman or enforcer. He's suspected of having a body count somewhere in the 150 range edit: It also completely leaves out the entire Mountain Meadows Massacre incident, where Mormons slaughtered around 120 men women and children in a wagon train headed to California in September of…

Just in case you were also confused, 1957 is a slight typo. The Massacre occurred in 1857.

Re: The 1857 Utah War

#27

Quoted post unavailable.

This hot take is a little extreme but not too far from the truth.

You'll only understand the depths to which the LDS church controls the state and enforces it's social and moral code if you've lived in Utah for an extended period as an outsider. It's pretty fucking weird.

- Hard liquor only sold by State Liquor stores, where they digitally record your ID. Only open a few hours a day, and on certain days. Additional state-mandated restrictions on what may be stocked (not too high of proof, etc). Fiendishly overpriced.

- Beer is all 1/2 the standard alcohol content, and may not be purchased on Sundays or after something like 10pm (forgive me, I don't recall the exact hours but you get the point). You must drive to a neighboring state to get regular alcoholic beverages.

- The LDS church wields immense financial power, usually wielded with a thin veil indirection to avoid running afoul of federal non-profit tax law.

- The LDS church is above the law, because they control it. Can't say they hijacked the state, because they founded it. There is no other place in the United States controlled by a single faction like Utah, which should terrify you. Fortunately for the rest of us outsiders, if you leave the morms alone in the macro sense, they'll ignore you, seeing you as a non-variable / non-threat.

- Church is full of porno fiends and sexual abusers; hypocrites at every level (denying human nature breeds curiosity and extremist effects on the population). It's really sad for all the victims, who are often the perpetrators' own family members.

- Lots of closet homosexuality. Also sad. The church has also squashed gay rights in the state and attempted to also suppress same-sex rights at th e federal level.

It's worth noting that over time as more non-morms move to Salt Lake City, some of the cultural norms and somewhat diluted just by sheer numbers of outsiders.

Once you get away from that lone big city, it's something like 80-90% "active" mormons. This is the phenomenon granting the church indirect controls over the vast majority of the politics and state at large.

The mormons and church are clever, going to great lengths to ensure their activities are technically legal.

Lots of nice individual people, but a scary powerful organization. It's a cult.

https://dailyutahchronicle.com/2022/06/20/mendenhall-lds-chu...

https://www.sltrib.com/news/2021/08/10/lds-church-moves-quas...

Re: The 1857 Utah War

#28

There's a historical marker in Echo Canyon about this. It says, essentially, that the army was sent because they thought Utah was in rebellion, but Utah was not actually in rebellion, and therefore it was not right/legal to send the army, and therefore it was legitimate for Utah to resist the army. (It's in Utah, so no surprise, the historical marker is a Mormon-view spin on what happened.) So, wait, let me make sure…

Re >> It's legitimate for you to fight the US army because you're not in rebellion?

That's right. Similar to how if a cop tries to arrest you, but you did nothing deserving of arrest, it's legitimate to resist arrest. But... uh, then oic.... /s

Re: The 1857 Utah War

#29

Wasn't this one of the primary reasons why majority of Mormons live south of Salt Lake? I swear Brigham Young ordered a scorched earth type thing on SLC and most relocated south.

Nah, there are plenty of cities with high LDS populations north of SLC. Bountiful, Centerville, Kaysville are like in the 80-90% ranges. It's when you get into Layton with Hill Air Force Base and Ogden where the population seems to dwindle. North of Ogden, you have Brigham City where the population again is very high.

Re: The 1857 Utah War

#30
post #2

The article is an interesting take on the time period For one example, I think Porter Rockwell is less considered a lawman, and more of a hitman or enforcer. He's suspected of having a body count somewhere in the 150 range edit: It also completely leaves out the entire Mountain Meadows Massacre incident, where Mormons slaughtered around 120 men women and children in a wagon train headed to California in September of…

Just in case you were also confused, 1957 is a slight typo. The Massacre occurred in 1857.

whoops, thanks!
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