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Are these founders trying to screw me?

news.ycombinator.com

11–20 of 66 posts

Re: Are these founders trying to screw me?

#11
They're screwing you already. I would take this as sunken losses and quit; they're not ethical, and can't be trusted even if they do give you a stock agreement; and you're technical, meaning you can get a job somewhere else.

The "hey that's up to the investor and his law firm" part is a negotiating tactic where you appeal to lack of authority (I forgot its real name). It's bullshit. They're the founders. They can make things happen. Do you think if they would say this to Richard Stallman? No. They're just pretending something's impossible so they don't have to give in in negotiations.

On a final note: Everyone here is going to give you advice that, on the whole, is aggressive. "Tell them to fuck themselves." "Sabotage them." They're saying stuff that amounts to "You go, girlfriend! Tell that man he ain't good enough for you!" and they're not necessarily the best course of action. Especially when a recession looms.

I've been doing work on their servers and checking it into their repository I'm not sure what that means. Up here in the north east where there isn't a large pool of investors / firms like silicon valley I feel pressure to comply so this investor doesn't vanish.

You obviously have them by the balls. The fact you've touched a server and even operated it tells me you're probably a nerd, like myself and everyone on this site. You don't really have a lot of experience with this sort of thing because you probably had no social currency growing up. Now you have a lot of currency. Enough to kill their startup. If you can't work up the courage (not a trivial process) have someone negotiate on your behalf. Alternatively, move to another startup, or to California. You're technical. You can find something better.

As always, I am not a lawyer.

Re: Are these founders trying to screw me?

#13
1 - talk to a lawyer. 2 - talk to a lawyer. 3 - talk to a lawyer.

My non-legal opinion is that if you were promised shares and you have any form of documentation the conversation took place, you should leverage your position before the VC round closes and don't sign anything prior to getting what you feel is fair. Even if you do not stay with the company, you may get a nice payoff or some severance shares to walk and let the VC deal go through. Most first round investors will walk if the founders have liabilities like the one you are describing.

oh yeah, and stop working for assholes ;) There are lots of decent company founders out there. I think you will find that turning your back on the bad ones will somehow eventually make the world just slightly a better place.

Re: Are these founders trying to screw me?

#14
post #2

first and foremost, is this really still worth it to pursue for you? sounds like its a stressful, difficult situation. ask to see if you can sign a NDA specifically with respect to the stock agreement, maybe? i'd also find out from your lawyer, if you can, exactly what your rights are. have you been officially working for them? is that code technically still yours? what other things have you signed? etc..

You're right it is very stressful and difficult. I've thought of walking away many times since in my opinion dealing with dishonest people is not worth it. I haven't signed anything ever with them. It's all been on good faith. I've been doing work on their servers and checking it into their repository I'm not sure what that means. Up here in the north east where there isn't a large pool of investors / firms like sili…

Are you worried about investors? This is the time to take your slice of the pie(I mean in honest sense). If investors find out you own the code and can walk away with it they will be hesitant in investing since once you walk away what are the founders left with? they'll lose investor.

Also if you think they are not honest trust me it is not worth trying more, down the road they'll try something else to get back the stocks even if they give it to you now.

If they are not honest with you take your code without telling them and start you own company or if you need a job find other one. It is very difficult to get the dishonest people straight, best thing is to find your way out.

Re: Are these founders trying to screw me?

#16
post #10

I am surprised you've been waiting for a year. You should already agree and demand they give you the percentage they promissed. It's OBVIOUS they are trying to screw you. "I've been working for a startup" Did you get paid for the work you did? If no, then probably you still own the code. Check that with your lawyer. In case you decide to leave now will you still own the code? If yes, then you know what to do.

Did you get paid for the work you did? If no, then probably you still own the code.

This is really good advice here. So many people miss this one. I wish it had more upmods.

When people try to screw you like this they usually rely on keeping everything as vague as possible, hoping to get as much out of you as they can and then stiff you in the end. This vagueness cuts both ways. If there was no written agreement and no pay, what you've got is a few guys working in a room on their own stuff with a verbal agreement to trade that stuff later for more undisclosed stuff (like stock, or shares, or whatever).

YOU OWN YOUR PART and you can walk with it. Of course, check with a lawyer to determine your legal exposure before doing so and have a plan of action for dealing with some very angry guys who have just realized the upper hand they thought they had has been reversed.

All I can add to this is to be sure to tell your lawyer everything you can think of. Sometimes things that seem irrelevant to you have magical legal significance.

Re: Are these founders trying to screw me?

#17

From past experience, if it is a good idea for a company, and the sole problem is that the founder is a psychopath, I'd just steal all the code you've written and form your own company and poach the investors. Worked for Zuckerberg. Of course, YMMV.

It's not really stealing of source if you wrote it and there's no contract saying it belongs to them.

I know in Canada at least, unless otherwise stated copyright stays with the creator (in a contractor relationship, other way around for employees) and you've simply licensed them use of the code. So you're only bound to anything you've verbalized (that can be proven) and written down (think emails). I know our copyright laws are a bit different from the US though, so it's worth being prudent first (always is :).

Re: Are these founders trying to screw me?

#19

From past experience, if it is a good idea for a company, and the sole problem is that the founder is a psychopath, I'd just steal all the code you've written and form your own company and poach the investors. Worked for Zuckerberg. Of course, YMMV.

it is a good idea ... in a perfect world this sounds ideal :)

As it works here in the US, you can take anything you've personally wrote and go your own way with it unless the following exists... You've signed or >>clearyIn a situation like this, if the idea is stellar enough (and you understand it enough) that you could do the idea without them and it would likely be successful, I would take it and form your own company, potentially file for patents on anything new, and look immediately for investors.

In the world of business there are two key things which separate one from another, and both must be present. The first is material, code, visual/displayable proof of concept, prototype, or product. The second is money to execute and grow the material and code. With those two things, you'll have the upper hand against them at any time. Some will argue in the long run, if they manage to survive being beaten out in the beginning by product and money, that they may have a greater vision or business sense to execute it more efficiently, but the success would be unlikely. From your description of them I would think they would quickly crumble under the matter and the fact that you did what he's so scared of and he drove you to do would render him utterly useless/dysfunctional.

THAT IS JUST MY POSITION AND TAKE ON IT. I AM NOT A LAWYER AND DO NOT CLAIM TO BE CURRENT OR ABSOLUTE IN MY LAW KNOWLEDGE. THE ABOVE IS JUST MY OPINION AND VIEWPOINT ON THE TOPIC IN QUESTION.

Re: Are these founders trying to screw me?

#20
post #17

From past experience, if it is a good idea for a company, and the sole problem is that the founder is a psychopath, I'd just steal all the code you've written and form your own company and poach the investors. Worked for Zuckerberg. Of course, YMMV.

It's not really stealing of source if you wrote it and there's no contract saying it belongs to them. I know in Canada at least, unless otherwise stated copyright stays with the creator (in a contractor relationship, other way around for employees) and you've simply licensed them use of the code. So you're only bound to anything you've verbalized (that can be proven) and written down (think emails). I know our copyri…

It doesn't matter if there's a written contract... if you are working on a venture together with some sort of verbal understanding, in California (I'm assuming in the rest of the USA too) that is just as legally binding as a written contract (At least according to the two lawyers I've talked to... you should obviously talk to your lawyer about your options as circumstances may be different).
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