Carlos Ghosn’s Brazen Escape from Japan • Hacker News Board

Re: Carlos Ghosn’s Brazen Escape from Japan

#31

Post by exhilaration » Sun, Aug 07, 2022, 7:19 PM UTC

jokowueu wrote: post #25

throwoutway wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's not wrong to escape from prison. Uh, yes it is. Maybe if you’re imprisoned illegally (kidnapping or by kangaroo court) but in the general case—in a democracy with actual courts, it’s wrong. You think the cartel bosses that escaped from Mexico’s prisons were not morally and ethically wrong on multiple levels? Just because there’s also some corruption in the gov? Or because the prisons aren’t great. That’s unrea…

There are major issues with Japan's justice system though . I mean just reading the link on this thread made me sad Michael Taylor. Mr. Taylor pleaded guilty to aiding Mr. Ghosn’s escape and started a two-year sentence at Tokyo’s Fuchu Prison in the summer of 2021; he spends much of his day in solitary confinement.

Just in case the folks reading this comment don't see what's so bad about solitary confinement: Prolonged solitary confinement amounts to psychological torture, says UN expert https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2020/02/united-state...

Re: Carlos Ghosn’s Brazen Escape from Japan

#32

Post by Teever » Sun, Aug 07, 2022, 7:21 PM UTC

Cupertino95014 wrote: post #30

Since: 1) He had essentially zero chance of being acquitted, and 2) He was the victim of Nissan executives who didn't like having a gaijin be their boss: In his shoes, I would feel morally justified in escaping. Financial crimes deserve a financial penalty. If you disagree with that, suppose Britney Griner somehow escaped from Russian "justice"? How would you feel then? Edit. Everyone talking about hypothetical burgl…

> Financial crimes deserve a financial penalty.

Can you explain this one?

Do you believe violent crimes require a violent penalty?

Re: Carlos Ghosn’s Brazen Escape from Japan

#33

Post by tptacek » Sun, Aug 07, 2022, 7:21 PM UTC

CamperBob2 wrote: post #22

mrtksn wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He is rich and able, I would have done the same if I was in his shoes so I don't judge him from moral perspective. I'm on the same page with the Germans on this one, i.e. it shouldn't be a crime and it's not wrong to escape from prison. That said, not being him, I really don't like the narrative built around how Japanese prisons are horrible and it's justified to not serve for crimes in Japan. I also wonder if the "J…

I've read that Japanese prosecutors win something like 98% of the cases they bring. If true, it suggests that either they let a lot of crimes go unprosecuted in Japan, which doesn't ring true, or that their police have godlike powers of investigation and discernment (ditto), or that the adversarial court system really is a bit too adversarial from the defendant's point of view. So I can't say I wouldn't have done the…

It would be fucked up if prosecutors weren't winning well over 90% of their cases, because being prosecuted is a punishment in and of itself --- it's ruinously expensive. So you'd very much hope prosecution is reserved for slam-dunk cases, as federal prosecution is in the US, where prosecutors also have a ~95% success rate.

They alternative, where prosecutors lose so many cases that their win rate goes down into the 70's or 60's, implies that prosecutors are taking lots of flyers just see how the cases shake out. That would be a tremendous abuse.

Re: Carlos Ghosn’s Brazen Escape from Japan

#34

Post by exhilaration » Sun, Aug 07, 2022, 7:24 PM UTC

maybelsyrup wrote: post #28

theflyingelvis wrote: post #15

Props to Ghosn. Stuck it to the man.

Ghosn IS "the man". People who stick it to the man don't have access to Green Berets and private jets and multiple citizenships. This story can be understood as bickering between two factions or groups of "the man": on the one side the Japanese legal system, hardly a champion of the underdog; and on the other, one of the world's richest and most powerful people, the sort of person who does not (cannot) arrive at his…

The other side, according to Ghosn, wasn't the Japanese legal system -- it was other Nissan executives that weaponized the Japanese legal system against a foreigner. Still, I agree it's very much a case of infighting among the privileged.

Re: Carlos Ghosn’s Brazen Escape from Japan

#35

Post by labster » Sun, Aug 07, 2022, 7:25 PM UTC

CamperBob2 wrote: post #22

mrtksn wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He is rich and able, I would have done the same if I was in his shoes so I don't judge him from moral perspective. I'm on the same page with the Germans on this one, i.e. it shouldn't be a crime and it's not wrong to escape from prison. That said, not being him, I really don't like the narrative built around how Japanese prisons are horrible and it's justified to not serve for crimes in Japan. I also wonder if the "J…

I've read that Japanese prosecutors win something like 98% of the cases they bring. If true, it suggests that either they let a lot of crimes go unprosecuted in Japan, which doesn't ring true, or that their police have godlike powers of investigation and discernment (ditto), or that the adversarial court system really is a bit too adversarial from the defendant's point of view. So I can't say I wouldn't have done the…

All of those options are true, but you forgot the forced confessions. 30 days detention before charging is long enough for the bruises to heal. On the other hand, they prosecute far less crime across all categories than in the United States.

The staff of prosecutors is much smaller in Japan, so it likely means they mostly prosecute the winnable cases. In contrast in the US, a district attorney might choose to prosecute cases which make themself more electable.

Re: Carlos Ghosn’s Brazen Escape from Japan

#36

Post by russellbeattie » Sun, Aug 07, 2022, 7:27 PM UTC

It makes you wonder how hard it would be for someone in the US to do the same... Let's imagine a hypothetical situation where a prominent wealthy person was indicted for some random federal crime, say 18 U.S.C. § 372 or 2384, etc. I'd bet they wouldn't need to hide in a box to flee to a country without an extradition agreement, like Russia for example.

One would hope we'd be able to prevent something like that, but it's a big country.

Re: Carlos Ghosn’s Brazen Escape from Japan

#37

Post by xbar » Sun, Aug 07, 2022, 7:27 PM UTC

Cupertino95014 wrote: post #30

Since: 1) He had essentially zero chance of being acquitted, and 2) He was the victim of Nissan executives who didn't like having a gaijin be their boss: In his shoes, I would feel morally justified in escaping. Financial crimes deserve a financial penalty. If you disagree with that, suppose Britney Griner somehow escaped from Russian "justice"? How would you feel then? Edit. Everyone talking about hypothetical burgl…

Ghosn "the victim" is my favorite part of this post.

Re: Carlos Ghosn’s Brazen Escape from Japan

#38

Post by MerelyMortal » Sun, Aug 07, 2022, 7:27 PM UTC

Cupertino95014 wrote: post #30

Since: 1) He had essentially zero chance of being acquitted, and 2) He was the victim of Nissan executives who didn't like having a gaijin be their boss: In his shoes, I would feel morally justified in escaping. Financial crimes deserve a financial penalty. If you disagree with that, suppose Britney Griner somehow escaped from Russian "justice"? How would you feel then? Edit. Everyone talking about hypothetical burgl…

> Financial crimes deserve a financial penalty.

I'm not sure what you mean by it, can you please give an example?

For most people, money represents the time out of their lives it took to earn it.

If you steal $10 from someone, and they earned it from a job that pays $10/hour - you didn't steal $10, you stole an hour of their life.

Re: Carlos Ghosn’s Brazen Escape from Japan

#39

Post by RajT88 » Sun, Aug 07, 2022, 7:29 PM UTC

CamperBob2 wrote: post #22

mrtksn wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He is rich and able, I would have done the same if I was in his shoes so I don't judge him from moral perspective. I'm on the same page with the Germans on this one, i.e. it shouldn't be a crime and it's not wrong to escape from prison. That said, not being him, I really don't like the narrative built around how Japanese prisons are horrible and it's justified to not serve for crimes in Japan. I also wonder if the "J…

I've read that Japanese prosecutors win something like 98% of the cases they bring. If true, it suggests that either they let a lot of crimes go unprosecuted in Japan, which doesn't ring true, or that their police have godlike powers of investigation and discernment (ditto), or that the adversarial court system really is a bit too adversarial from the defendant's point of view. So I can't say I wouldn't have done the…

From what I've read, I suspect both those things are true: lots of crimes go unprosecuted, as well as the police having godlike powers.

But - FWIW - prosecutors in the US tend to have win rates north of 90% as well. 98% is excessively high, yes, but we're talking single digit percentages compared to a country with comparatively more crime.

Re: Carlos Ghosn’s Brazen Escape from Japan

#40

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Aug 07, 2022, 7:30 PM UTC

Cupertino95014 wrote: post #30

Since: 1) He had essentially zero chance of being acquitted, and 2) He was the victim of Nissan executives who didn't like having a gaijin be their boss: In his shoes, I would feel morally justified in escaping. Financial crimes deserve a financial penalty. If you disagree with that, suppose Britney Griner somehow escaped from Russian "justice"? How would you feel then? Edit. Everyone talking about hypothetical burgl…

[deleted]