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The Latest Study on Red Meat and Heart Disease: A Red Herring

unsettledscience.substack.com

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Re: The Latest Study on Red Meat and Heart Disease: A Red Herring

#131

Post by copperx »

phpisthebest wrote: post #86
em500 wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yup, according to studies, everything we eat both causes and prevents cancer[1]. AFAICT it's almost impossible to conduct convincing nutrition science. Even if the signs of the effect in observational studies are all in the same direction (usually they're not, see the reference), you still can't rule out many confounding effects. To demonstrate causality, you'd need to force a large number of people on specific diets…

I think most nutrition science can be boiled down to 4 rules that most people should follow, and ignore the rest 1. Avoid processed Foods, Learn to cook your own meals 2. Eat a variety of foods 3. Control your portions (especially carbs) 4. Drink more water Everything else is mostly irrelevant to the normal person. Are eggs good or bad, is Red meat worse than Chicken, etc etc... Who Cares. Eat it all in moderation, w…

I would not even follow these 4 recommendations without a ton of evidence. Yes, they "make sense" because that's what we've been taught since we were children, but are these behaviors good compared to doing nothing?

Re: The Latest Study on Red Meat and Heart Disease: A Red Herring

#132

Post by copperx »

mrandish wrote: post #98
em500 wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yup, according to studies, everything we eat both causes and prevents cancer[1]. AFAICT it's almost impossible to conduct convincing nutrition science. Even if the signs of the effect in observational studies are all in the same direction (usually they're not, see the reference), you still can't rule out many confounding effects. To demonstrate causality, you'd need to force a large number of people on specific diets…

Due to some fairly serious diet-related personal health issues (obesity and several related co-morbidities), 5 years ago I started closely following nutrition science. In this time, the clearest thing I've learned is that the vast majority of "Nutrition Science" is poor science - to the extent of hardly being science at all. * If the data is based on diary data, it's noisy to the extent of being nearly useless and no…

I agree. And al of that leads to information fatigue. After reading many studies, I'm even worried about "common sense" nutrition knowledge, for example:

* I'm worried about increasing my fruit and vegetable intake, because that will raise my pesticide burden. It is not clear whether the benefits of fruits and vegetables make up for the increased probability of cancer of pesticide consumption. Organic produce is not a solution, as the pesticide burden is even higher.

* Increasing fish consumption of even "healthy" dishes will increase heavy metal consumption. Is it worth it?

* Taking Omega 3 supplements greatly increases the risk of prostate cancer. Is it really worth it?

You can't rely on anything to make dietary decisions for longevity. The best one can aim for is dietary advice to maintain a healthy weight. That, at least, can be quickly proven empirically.

Re: The Latest Study on Red Meat and Heart Disease: A Red Herring

#133

Post by copperx »

dataangel wrote: post #113

It's difficult for me to take this blogger seriously when they want to give red meat credit for containing heme iron, which is suspected to be a cause for worse health outcomes.

Yeah, you don't want heme iron if you're an adult, especially if you're male.

At least multivitamin manufacturers get that right (that surprises me). No adult multivitamin contains iron.

Re: The Latest Study on Red Meat and Heart Disease: A Red Herring

#134

Post by copperx »

mark_l_watson wrote: post #69
pfdietz wrote: post #23

"If TMAO is their answer, however, they should really be warning against fish, not meat. Cod yields 65+ times more TMAO than beef, and halibut, at least 100 times more, according to a 1999 study that examined the effects of 46 foods on TMAO excreted in human urine. Carrots, cauliflower, peas, peanuts and potatoes also lead to far more TMAO than beef."

I agree, be careful what kind of fish you consume. I really like sardines (tasty!) and they have much less heavy metals, etc. than larger fish that are higher up the food chain.

Fish should come with CoAs. No ifs or buts about it.

Re: The Latest Study on Red Meat and Heart Disease: A Red Herring

#135

Post by copperx »

FredPret wrote: post #74

There never has and never will be a good stats-based study on human diet. We are the most complex things we know of in the universe. Confounding factors abound. Isolating one is impossible, unless researchers have access to a million identical twins separated at birth and forced to eat a certain diet all their lives, in which case there’s probably a huge human rights crisis going on… and the study would still be inva…

I don't think handwaving away an entire field of study is going to benefit you in any way, flawed as that field might be.

Living is easy with eyes closed. Dying is too.

Re: The Latest Study on Red Meat and Heart Disease: A Red Herring

#137

Post by moffkalast »

copperx wrote: post #129
moffkalast wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the paleo fairy, because most of them die earlier than most people in developed nations I require a source on the average timespan of paleo fairies.

By timespan do you mean the time that they remain in a Paleo diet? Or did you mean lifespan?

...either would be good.

Re: The Latest Study on Red Meat and Heart Disease: A Red Herring

#138

Post by phpisthebest »

copperx wrote: post #131
phpisthebest wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think most nutrition science can be boiled down to 4 rules that most people should follow, and ignore the rest 1. Avoid processed Foods, Learn to cook your own meals 2. Eat a variety of foods 3. Control your portions (especially carbs) 4. Drink more water Everything else is mostly irrelevant to the normal person. Are eggs good or bad, is Red meat worse than Chicken, etc etc... Who Cares. Eat it all in moderation, w…

I would not even follow these 4 recommendations without a ton of evidence. Yes, they "make sense" because that's what we've been taught since we were children, but are these behaviors good compared to doing nothing?

Well "doing nothing" would be not eating, and pretty sure "Breatharian" is right up there with the flat earth

Re: The Latest Study on Red Meat and Heart Disease: A Red Herring

#139

Post by geraldyo »

uxcolumbo wrote: post #116
geraldyo wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm able to differentiate any vegan product from a non-vegan one in under 5 seconds of checking. There is ALWAYS an ingredient list, which is always going to tell you very clearly what you're buying. It is also a good idea to do that to other products you're buying. The "food industry" doesn't really exist, but the meat industry is heavily lobbying for strict regulations, as well as producing more and more ads ("eat…

> If everyone could eat locally grown ethically sourced meat, there would be no need for veganism Vegan = avoiding cruelty, suffering and exploitation as much as possible in a pragmatic way. Veganism isn't a diet. It's a moral choice that people make, as they don't want to support an industry that's killing our biosphere and inflicting unnecessary cruelty - since in most parts of the world people don't need meat anym…

You are correct. Re-read it while replacing that with plant-based and my points stand.

Re: The Latest Study on Red Meat and Heart Disease: A Red Herring

#140

Post by geraldyo »

Eleison23 wrote: post #114
geraldyo wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm able to differentiate any vegan product from a non-vegan one in under 5 seconds of checking. There is ALWAYS an ingredient list, which is always going to tell you very clearly what you're buying. It is also a good idea to do that to other products you're buying. The "food industry" doesn't really exist, but the meat industry is heavily lobbying for strict regulations, as well as producing more and more ads ("eat…

Quoted post unavailable.

Theres is more demand. Thus, stores looking for customers sell more of those products. Thus, there are more plant based products. (1) they may or may not have removed other meat/dairy products, but they may have removed other products, because meat and dairy are still excellent sellers and (2) that wasn't your point, you were saying they are hard to identify and heavily implied that it's maliciously done.

The demand side isn't being attacked anymore than in any other industry. "Buy our product because it doesn't include chemical X" is the same thing as plant-based meats saying meat is bad for you. Also, "Studies" aren't even in the top 5 reasons why people at scale make life-changing decisions... there are studies that say almost anything about diet, people are influenced by media. In the media, I've seen more ads and articles about how soy is bad, milk is good, meat is good. Why do you not have any issue with that, but you do have issues with studies being published that say the opposite?

The supply side doesn't need to be demonized, because it did a great job itself. All of those industries have made insane amounts of money through lobbying for deregulation in their respective countries and then lowering costs while increasing profits by using that de-regulated environment. That deregulated environment just needs to be filmed in its reality to be "demonic".

If that didn't exist, again, there would be no need for the veganism movement and you'd likely never hear about "plant based", since most people follow plant based diets because the supply side has made itself terrible.

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