How to lose time and money • Hacker News Board

Re: How to lose time and money

#51

Post by _delirium » Tue, Nov 15, 2011, 3:57 AM UTC

jseliger wrote: post #30

zipdog wrote: post #9

Sometimes I think the feeling of getting "basically nothing" done by the end of the day is not the right timeframe - there are projects that have gone on for weeks that ultimately were a complete waste of time. But while working through those projects I felt something productive was happening, which made it difficult to think of them as "basically nothing". I'm not talking about failed ventures that could have turned…

Sometimes I think the feeling of getting "basically nothing" done by the end of the day is not the right timeframe - there are projects that have gone on for weeks that ultimately were a complete waste of time. I suspect pg means that he spent the day checking / responding to e-mails, reading HN, maybe paying some bills, noodling around the Internet, checking e-mail again, and then discovering that it's getting close…

The Internet is particularly insidious in this respect, because reading HN, looking at the NYT, and so forth can feel work-like without actually accomplishing anything substantial.

It's true, but it also builds vague background knowledge in a hard-to-quantify way (and I'm honestly not sure how it stacks up to the time invested). I very frequently find myself drawing on knowledge that I ran across during internet time-wasting, whether it was a relevant article I found on HN, or a Wikipedia article I found in one of those random-walk-through-link sessions (or the journal articles I found via the Wikipedia articles...). On the other hand, I also spend a lot of time "keeping up with the internet", so it's not free. But it's certainly shown up in papers I've published in my day job.

It's an interesting tradeoff; I'd say I'm less concentrated and diligent than most of my colleagues on what I'm "supposed to be doing", but I'm also more broadly aware of what's going on outside of our little academic bubble. They get more done on their main projects, but I'm the person to come to if you want to be pointed to relevant articles/libraries/demos/posts on $topic_foo. It's not even so much that it saves me time researching later, as that I'm not sure I'd even be able to make some of the cross-connections between subjects without this undirected information-gathering.

Re: How to lose time and money

#52

Post by nandemo » Tue, Nov 15, 2011, 4:05 AM UTC

fferen wrote: post #5

I think this ties into the idea of MMORPGs. I used to play them a lot until I realized they were not fun, just addictive; they make you feel like you're accomplishing something by leveling and gaining skills, when really it's only your character that's improving - you're not getting better at anything.

Paul contrasts two situations, the first exemplified by the "watching TV all day" example, the second by "staying all day at the office doing busywork while not accomplishing much".

Playing MMORPGs all day seems rather like the first, not the second.

Re: How to lose time and money

#53

Post by ramchip » Tue, Nov 15, 2011, 4:31 AM UTC

gbog wrote: post #41

dkokelley wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are many positive activities that can be both productive and fun, including a card game with friends. In that case, you are investing in to those relationships and fulfilling a very basic human desire for socialization. It's not that you're not getting anything done. You're just getting different things done. Compare that to a day in front of the TV. Can you say you've gotten anything out of it? Did you learn a…

> [playing cards] you are investing in to those relationships and fulfilling a very basic human desire for socialization. I think your point of view, and pg's, is very utilitarian. Utilitarianism has its uses in many human activities, including writing code, but should not be invoked when talking about playing cards with friends. When I play card, I do NOT "invest" in relationships, I have no intent to fulfill anythi…

But isn't utility pleasure? If reading a novel gives you pleasure, then you derive utility from it. Same thing for playing cards. Investing into making yourself a better person is simply investing in future utility, ie. extra pleasure that you may be able to derive from being successful, owning a house, having stronger relationships, etc. These have to be balanced against the worth of immediate utility, which may mean that you'll spend a night playing cards with friends for some immediate pleasure, and the next night learning a language, in prevision of future rewards.

My impression is that you are reducing utilitarianism to a Mr Spock kind of pseudo-logical thinking. You seem to be forgetting that the ultimate goal of utilitarianism is happiness. It's not about gaining knowledge or even self-improvement. Playing cards for pure fun is not at odds with utilitarianism.

(Disclaimer: I am not a philosopher nor do I have more than a basic knowledge of utilitarianism)

Re: How to lose time and money

#54

Post by Joakal » Tue, Nov 15, 2011, 4:39 AM UTC

5hoom wrote: post #43

jdh wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I felt this way a decade ago when my wife and I rented Season 1 of the show 24. I never enjoyed it, but felt strangely compelled to find out what happened in the next episode, and would stay up too late watching. After one season I decided that was enough of that addiction.

I really hated the politics and rhetoric of 24, but was somehow compelled beyond my will to watch every single episode. I knew it was unhealthy as I'd stay up way too late and ended up getting weird & anxious (head full of of right-wing fantasy combined with prolonged sleep depravation). Unlike you I didn't kick the addiction & i've now seen every season. Damn you and your insidious cliff-hangers Jack Bauer! :P

I didn't watch it because it got cliché pretty fast like LOST. The worst offender I reckon was Dragonball Z [0]. I realised this pattern and that greatly put me off many games and movies, eg WoW, FarmVille, etc. It was a grind. I want something novel.

[0] Do: Scream, build up tension, to be continued, until Infinity. Replace scream with drama (twists).

Re: How to lose time and money

#55

Post by jquery » Tue, Nov 15, 2011, 4:43 AM UTC

fferen wrote: post #5

I think this ties into the idea of MMORPGs. I used to play them a lot until I realized they were not fun, just addictive; they make you feel like you're accomplishing something by leveling and gaining skills, when really it's only your character that's improving - you're not getting better at anything.

I take issue with this. I think MMORPGs can be a LOT of fun. The problem is, like with anything, eventually it stops being fun and feels more like work. As soon as that happens, most people have the good sense to quit. However, MMORPGs have just enough "community" to keep some people playing long after the stopped enjoying it. I myself quit playing MMORPGs years ago and will readily admit I do not enjoy them anymore. But I can't deny the thrill I had when I first started playing through World of Warcraft when it first came out.

Did I get better at anything useful? Not really. But that's okay. There's more to life than an endless treadmill of getting better at things.

Re: How to lose time and money

#56

Post by gbog » Tue, Nov 15, 2011, 4:53 AM UTC

ramchip wrote: post #53

gbog wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> [playing cards] you are investing in to those relationships and fulfilling a very basic human desire for socialization. I think your point of view, and pg's, is very utilitarian. Utilitarianism has its uses in many human activities, including writing code, but should not be invoked when talking about playing cards with friends. When I play card, I do NOT "invest" in relationships, I have no intent to fulfill anythi…

But isn't utility pleasure? If reading a novel gives you pleasure, then you derive utility from it. Same thing for playing cards. Investing into making yourself a better person is simply investing in future utility, ie. extra pleasure that you may be able to derive from being successful, owning a house, having stronger relationships, etc. These have to be balanced against the worth of immediate utility, which may mea…

> pleasure == utility

Well, not sure I follow you on this terrain... Let's find something that we would agree is useless, and enjoyable. Maybe fishing alone and putting fish back in the river?

Or you would say that this is also useful. But then anything is useful and the word itself has no meaning (and become useless, hehe).

I may be too much influenced by Eastern streams of thoughts, where we have zen, taoism, etc., all saying that nothingness, emptiness, uselessness are things we should value more, because they are the ground on which everything grows. (Simple example: without silence on which a composer is building, no music is possible)

So, to go back to pg's essay, which is more of a short blog post, I found it was lacking an open door toward these possibilities that "lost time" is not always lost.

Re: How to lose time and money

#57

Post by mlinsey » Tue, Nov 15, 2011, 5:32 AM UTC

goldmab wrote: post #18

If Paul Graham realized that people can easily lose lots of money by investing, why did he devote himself to investing large amounts of his own money in high-risk businesses? I'm not being facetious, I just think that seems contradictory. If I had a lot of money and that same knowledge, I would invest very conservatively.

The first couple YC batches were small enough that the money invested was probably a very small portion of what PG/Robert/Trevor earned from Viaweb.

For later batches, it had become evident that YC's model was promising, and YC also raised money from outside LP's.

Re: How to lose time and money

#58

Post by iansimon » Tue, Nov 15, 2011, 6:30 AM UTC

jdh wrote: post #10

fferen wrote: post #5

I think this ties into the idea of MMORPGs. I used to play them a lot until I realized they were not fun, just addictive; they make you feel like you're accomplishing something by leveling and gaining skills, when really it's only your character that's improving - you're not getting better at anything.

I felt this way a decade ago when my wife and I rented Season 1 of the show 24. I never enjoyed it, but felt strangely compelled to find out what happened in the next episode, and would stay up too late watching. After one season I decided that was enough of that addiction.

Here's how to avoid that: when you realize you're watching for that reason, go on Wikipedia and read the entire plot synopsis.

Re: How to lose time and money

#59

Post by dkokelley » Tue, Nov 15, 2011, 6:36 AM UTC

gbog wrote: post #56

ramchip wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But isn't utility pleasure? If reading a novel gives you pleasure, then you derive utility from it. Same thing for playing cards. Investing into making yourself a better person is simply investing in future utility, ie. extra pleasure that you may be able to derive from being successful, owning a house, having stronger relationships, etc. These have to be balanced against the worth of immediate utility, which may mea…

> pleasure == utility Well, not sure I follow you on this terrain... Let's find something that we would agree is useless, and enjoyable. Maybe fishing alone and putting fish back in the river? Or you would say that this is also useful. But then anything is useful and the word itself has no meaning (and become useless, hehe). I may be too much influenced by Eastern streams of thoughts, where we have zen, taoism, etc.,…

How would you measure the utility of something? I think our definitions of utility are not the same. I see utility as ANYTHING one derives usefulness from. Utility == value. Value is subjective. You value Zen. Taking the time to appreciate nothingness IS valuable to you, therefor spending the day meditating has utility to you.

The short essay isn't really about declaring activities to either be productive or wasted. It's about learning to identify "empty" activities that waste time with the false promise of being productive. Whether your time is wasted or productive is a personal matter for you to weigh against your own goals and values.

P.S. My apologies to anyone who might take offence to my poor understanding of Zen.

Re: How to lose time and money

#60

Post by aclements18 » Tue, Nov 15, 2011, 6:44 AM UTC

I think a good simple way to determine whether I'm doing fake work or not is to ask myself two questions, "Is this challenging?" then "will this help me reach my goals?"

I find that if I say no to either then I'm probably doing fake work (or doing real work poorly).