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Microdosing with psilocybin mushrooms: a double-blind placebo-controlled study

nature.com

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Re: Microdosing with psilocybin mushrooms: a double-blind placebo-controlled study

#161

Post by IlliOnato »

j_m_b wrote: post #122

I'm sort of surprised they didn't extract/synthesize psilocybin directly and administer that. Decades ago, I grew a few batches of P. Cubensis. Even amongst mushrooms from the same rice cake, the dosage wildly varies. You could have a "trip" from a tiny mushroom or eat a handful of duds.

It might be so that researchers investigate the common practice of "microdosing" and its effects, not necessarily (just) the effects of psilocybin low dosage. So they tried to closely emulate this practice, as it is done by users in real-life.

But this of course introduces more uncertainty, as you pointed out, so to have any conclusive results a much larger sample group would be needed, I think.

Also I agree with others that comparison with the baseline for each test subject, not just between the test group and control group, would be important.

Re: Microdosing with psilocybin mushrooms: a double-blind placebo-controlled study

#162

Post by zosima »

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #159
zosima wrote: post #90

In studies such as these with huge intersubject variability, and probably also quite large intrasubject variability from day to day on many scales, it makes sense to look at change from baseline for individuals in the various groups rather than just differences in raw scores between treatment groups. It seems by a cursory glance that most analyses done were of the latter kind, and I think then a study such as this, w…

> it makes sense to look at change from baseline for individuals in the various groups rather than just differences in raw scores between treatment groups. That’s called cherry picking. Results are always noisy. You could give two groups of people the same tests on different days without any drugs at all and some subset would show “improvement”. If you start focusing on the individuals that show the result you want t…

No, why would you claim that?

Re: Microdosing with psilocybin mushrooms: a double-blind placebo-controlled study

#163

Post by PragmaticPulp »

zosima wrote: post #162
PragmaticPulp wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it makes sense to look at change from baseline for individuals in the various groups rather than just differences in raw scores between treatment groups. That’s called cherry picking. Results are always noisy. You could give two groups of people the same tests on different days without any drugs at all and some subset would show “improvement”. If you start focusing on the individuals that show the result you want t…

No, why would you claim that?

Claim what? If you go through the results and exclude the individuals who didn’t show the outcome you wanted to see, that’s called cherry-picking. It’s a well-known phrase.

There is a concept of subgroup analysis in studies like these, but you have to be careful about how it’s done and what conclusions are drawn. If you simply select positive results and exclude negative results then even the placebo group would show great success.

This study showed that telling people that they were microdosing was more important for the perceived outcome than the micro dosing itself. In other words, placebo is key to making it work.

Re: Microdosing with psilocybin mushrooms: a double-blind placebo-controlled study

#164

Post by _wa6f »

jnovek wrote: post #84
umvi wrote: post #77

Do mushrooms make you write incoherent ramblings on Facebook about how you are God and how everyone else is stuck in the matrix? Because I have 3 different friends who all started doing that after dabbling in psychedelics

I’ve seen the observation that psychedelics evoke a sense of spirituality in people. I wonder if this is how people cope with that feeling of spirituality if they don’t participate in any organized religion?

it depends, of course. to experience a transpersonal / “spiritualized” angle into reality can be deeply challenging for non-religious, non-spiritual, or atheist folks.

or it can feel quite curious, new, refreshing, even liberating.

or anything else along that spectrum.

Re: Microdosing with psilocybin mushrooms: a double-blind placebo-controlled study

#165

Post by maybeiam »

umvi wrote: post #77

Do mushrooms make you write incoherent ramblings on Facebook about how you are God and how everyone else is stuck in the matrix? Because I have 3 different friends who all started doing that after dabbling in psychedelics

Have you tried it? They're pointing at something here that all of humanity has tried to point at.

I'm a very strident atheist and even I would claim that I have "found god" while high on mushrooms. And you and I both happen to be "it".

I'm not pointing at the institutional god. But I end up using the institutional words, because it's hard to find other words that describe it properly.

Alan Watts is the closest I've found that describes it without using religious phrases.

Re: Microdosing with psilocybin mushrooms: a double-blind placebo-controlled study

#166

Post by mtlmtlmtlmtl »

pengaru wrote: post #156
mtlmtlmtlmtl wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, drugs feel great, news at 11. If psychiatry was just a matter of giving people a constant buzz, it would be solved a century ago. I'm not judging you for wanting to be high all the time, I've been there myself. But be intellectually honest and call it that, at least. Because it's not some kind of psychological panacea, and I wish people would stop implying it is. And yes, I've tried it. It made me high, but gen…

> And yes, I've tried it. It made me high, but generally I was far less productive than I would be taking stimulants for my ADHD instead. If it made you high, you didn't microdose.

With even lower dose, no effect was present. See my response to one of the other replies.

Re: Microdosing with psilocybin mushrooms: a double-blind placebo-controlled study

#167

Post by PragmaticPulp »

mtlmtlmtlmtl wrote: post #26
EmilyHughes wrote: post #20

Been doing it for some months on & off, this shit is legit. Altough 0,5g has me tripping so I rarely dose above 100 milligrams. Get up early, do a workout, take cold shower, meditate and then pop a microdose shrooms, feels great. Microdosing is like steroids for meditation. Especially helpful for the programmer logic types of people like me, gets you out of your head for some time and helps you connect with your emot…

Yeah, drugs feel great, news at 11. If psychiatry was just a matter of giving people a constant buzz, it would be solved a century ago. I'm not judging you for wanting to be high all the time, I've been there myself. But be intellectually honest and call it that, at least. Because it's not some kind of psychological panacea, and I wish people would stop implying it is. And yes, I've tried it. It made me high, but gen…

> And yes, I've tried it. It made me high, but generally I was far less productive than I would be taking stimulants for my ADHD instead.

I had some coworkers try microdosing several years ago.

They were convinced that they were smarter and more productive on those days. Meanwhile, the rest of us could clearly see that they were just operating slower than normal and had a weirdly positive response to even slight achievements. Eventually the illusion was shattered when the rest of us would casually guess when they were microdosing and call them out because they were making obvious mistakes, missing things, or being amazed at benign realizations.

And before anyone asks: Yes, they tried many different doses down to minuscule amounts.

In retrospect, this is actually the least surprising result: That taking a micro-dose of a psychedelic produces a micro-trip.

Re: Microdosing with psilocybin mushrooms: a double-blind placebo-controlled study

#168

Post by _wa6f »

moravak1984 wrote: post #12
Maursault wrote: post #5

Maybe the trendy hallucinogenic microdosers should try microdosing food, water, air, speech and constantly being the center of attention. It just isn't interesting giving credibility to a new ignorant generation rediscovering what was known in some cases 60-80 years earlier, in some cases thousands of years earlier. Rediscovery is not interesting. It is embarassing.

> and constantly being the center of attention. Microdosing that one alone would bring enormous benefits... "Ego death" is basically an axiom on all doctrines promising more fulfilling, meaningful lives. Yes, psilocybin helps a lot on microdosing it... One-point anecdata.

i find the notion of ego-death to often be quite misdirective.

folks are getting taught that the source of their problems is their “ego”, ignoring that we need a functioning ego to survive. it’s not something to be demonized or eliminated. rather, an opportunity to integrate that part of ourselves and our relationship to it, including any stories that we may be telling ourselves about the inherent pathology of ego.

please note i am using the term “ego” in a psychoanalytic sense, not in the pop-connotative sense of displays of narcissistic arrogance.

Re: Microdosing with psilocybin mushrooms: a double-blind placebo-controlled study

#169

Post by belorn »

austinjp wrote: post #44
mtlmtlmtlmtl wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This study doesn't bear that out, nor have any other placebo-controlled trials. Also, I've experienced about 40 different psychoactive drugs, including both micro and megadoses of psychedelics. And my experience tracks with GP in that it does cognitively impair you. Maybe don't make blanket statements about people you disagree with, it doesn't make your argument look any stronger.

Erm, define "impairment". Yes this study notes reduced performance in some areas (but the authors acknowledge plenty of weaknesses and explanations in their discussion). However, increases in something like "creativity" might reduce e.g. verbal fluency, while increasing "performance" for artists, or increasing insights when problem solving in many disciplines.

There are definitively a number of artists that say they work better with alcohol. "impairment" would be defined as something that increase risk of reduce performance, as in, people who drink alcohol has a higher risk of having their driving skill reduced compared to those who don't have alcohol in their blood. Such statement doesn't exclude the possibility that alcohol may increase driving ability compared to base line, only that the variance is higher and thus risk.
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