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Alex Jones must pay $50m in punitive damages for Sandy Hook hoax claim

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Alex Jones must pay $50m in punitive damages for Sandy Hook hoax claim

#201

Post by adventured »

jerojero wrote: post #152
tootie wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I fervently believe that there's no practical way for government to regulate speech so they shouldn't try. If there were a magic way to stop people like Jones from talking that wouldn't chill free speech in general, I'd take it in a heartbeat. He's not contributing to the marketplace of ideas. He's spreading lies deliberately for his personal profit.

Is posting an image part of your free speech? Absolutely yes. Then let's see, when was the last time you were exposed to a child pornography image? Hopefully never (though we do have this whole pornhub drama going on). It is obvious that there are ways of controlling speech and we do it all the time. I think only Americans believe in this absolute negative liberty view of speech.

> I think only Americans believe in this absolute negative liberty view of speech.

That's a wonderful compliment.

Re: Alex Jones must pay $50m in punitive damages for Sandy Hook hoax claim

#202

Post by phpisthebest »

speakfreely wrote: post #153
bandyaboot wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The opposing, though not necessarily contradictory cliche is of course some variation of “a lie makes it around the world before the truth is out of bed”. That’s the problem, there’s plenty of situations where the lie has done it’s damage long before the truth can achieve much beyond the academic.

I think this is an important point. Many of us here live in cities, but in rural America there is a stunning amount of people who really believe that Joe Biden lost the 2020 election and that there was a massive, coordinated campaign of voter fraud. In many dominantly red states, this is not considered a fringe conspiracy theory but more or less generally accepted as fact.

The solution to that is not suppression of the idea(s), in fact attempts to suppress anyone talking about the election only serve as fuel to expand the number of people that believe it, as "what are they trying to hide" becomes of the main part of the story.

Greater, and Actual Transparency combined with a trust worthily network of news outlets would go along way to shut down these types of discussions

Sadly we have neither government nor really judicial transparency in any meaningful way, and we are at a point in time where trust in "news" is lower than trust in congress...

Want to tone down the number of people that believe in conspiracy... More Facts, less Spin...

Re: Alex Jones must pay $50m in punitive damages for Sandy Hook hoax claim

#203

Post by [deleted] »

wernercd wrote: post #151
bandyaboot wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The opposing, though not necessarily contradictory cliche is of course some variation of “a lie makes it around the world before the truth is out of bed”. That’s the problem, there’s plenty of situations where the lie has done it’s damage long before the truth can achieve much beyond the academic.

and it's still more important to have free speech because who decides "truth" and "lie"... and what happens when those in power switch and the other side decides. Want Biden or Obama to have some power? Are you going to be okay with Bush or Trump gets that power?

[deleted]

Re: Alex Jones must pay $50m in punitive damages for Sandy Hook hoax claim

#204

Post by stjohnswarts »

kypro wrote: post #163

Quoted post unavailable.

All I can say is try that in court. There is a reason the offenses of slander and libel exist. They are incredibly well thought out laws and well supported by precedence, common sense, and logic. Words can be every bit as dangerous as a sword, and Alex Jones is finding that out. It's actually quite black and white why it's not okay to slander and libel and why those who do it should have to pay the price for their offenses. These people had their lives ruined to an extent by Alex Jones and he has to be financially destroyed in order for him to understand, that's why the decision is as high as it is. Freedom of speech is not freedom to slander.

Re: Alex Jones must pay $50m in punitive damages for Sandy Hook hoax claim

#205

Post by samatman »

58028641 wrote: post #171
kypro wrote: post #163

Quoted post unavailable.

Are you saying stochastic terrorism should be legal?

It's a made up concept of very recent vintage, invented to win an election.

https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&geo=US&q=%...

I don't think stochastic terrorism should be legal or illegal, I think it's a useless concept we were doing fine without.

Re: Alex Jones must pay $50m in punitive damages for Sandy Hook hoax claim

#206

Post by ChainOfFools »

nathanvanfleet wrote: post #140
pessimizer wrote: post #10

I'm a supporter of Jones being able to spread whatever insane theories he wants whether or not he believes them himself, but he slandered the parents of dead children to the degree that some of the most insane and aggressive people in the world think that they're the agents of a world conspiracy with the intent to enslave the planet. $50 mil is a light judgement.

It's gotten to the point where people going out of their way to say they support this sort of talk are kind of weird. You didn't have to make that your headline, but you decided to make it that. You could have just said you think what he is saying is problematic etc, if you disagree with them you can say you disagree.

"go there-ism."

As if someone is saying "see that paradoxical/hostile bit of mental terrain over there? I can go there. _Ordinary_ people can't go there, but _I_ can. I have (for progressives) the exceptional acrobatic courageous flexibility / (for conservatives) the unbreakble mental backbone necessary to occupy and even defend a place that others can't tolerate even contemplating from a distance. "

  wish I had a better term for this specific flavor of one-upsmanship, but it's creeping into dialog more and more on a lot of fronts,  from a lot of different corners of society. I have a hunch that the boom in podcasting is a symptom and also an aggravating cause. People have given up on talking to each other, and now prefer to broadcast at each other.

Re: Alex Jones must pay $50m in punitive damages for Sandy Hook hoax claim

#207

Post by seventytwo »

dragonwriter wrote: post #23

Actually, no, the jury verdict on punitive damages is $45.2 million, but that is certain to be reduced before Jones is ordered to pay (there seems to be some dispute over whether a portion of the compensatory damages award is economic or not, and depending on the answer on that, the cap under Texas statutory punitive damages caps would seem to be somewhere between $750k and $1m; even if the plaintiffs succeed in thei…

What’s important about this, is that Jones is being sued in other jurisdictions that don’t have maximum punitive limits.

So it sets an important precedent for Jones (and others), that doing this kind of thing can cost you up to $50 million.

Even though Jones won’t actually have to pay that amount, an important example has been made of him.

Re: Alex Jones must pay $50m in punitive damages for Sandy Hook hoax claim

#208

Post by rayiner »

speakfreely wrote: post #153
bandyaboot wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The opposing, though not necessarily contradictory cliche is of course some variation of “a lie makes it around the world before the truth is out of bed”. That’s the problem, there’s plenty of situations where the lie has done it’s damage long before the truth can achieve much beyond the academic.

I think this is an important point. Many of us here live in cities, but in rural America there is a stunning amount of people who really believe that Joe Biden lost the 2020 election and that there was a massive, coordinated campaign of voter fraud. In many dominantly red states, this is not considered a fringe conspiracy theory but more or less generally accepted as fact.

No post body was provided.

Re: Alex Jones must pay $50m in punitive damages for Sandy Hook hoax claim

#209

Post by AtlasBarfed »

tootie wrote: post #106
gerdesj wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I'm a supporter of Jones being able to spread whatever insane theories" I think you are a supporter of freedom of speech in general - that's something I thoroughly approve of too. I also think you are able to understand the difference between seeing a horrendous crime and seeing that crime and attempting to profit from it. That seems to be what this bloke did: He tried to change and engorge the narrative regarding t…

I fervently believe that there's no practical way for government to regulate speech so they shouldn't try. If there were a magic way to stop people like Jones from talking that wouldn't chill free speech in general, I'd take it in a heartbeat. He's not contributing to the marketplace of ideas. He's spreading lies deliberately for his personal profit.

Do you believe someone should be able to brigade 1,000 people to post slander and accusations across the internet such that you are fired and ostracized from society, and possibly investigated and bankrupted?

Speech is information, and in the information age there is a lot of speech that can rapidly be brought to bear on someone. We've already seen it happen with internet mobs and similar things.

What happens when someone weaponizes it? Because that's what is going on here, and to pretend it is simply like "speech" from the ages of horseback and paper, much like when "arms" were muskets, is naive from a policy standpoint.

Re: Alex Jones must pay $50m in punitive damages for Sandy Hook hoax claim

#210

Post by adamredwoods »

krapp wrote: post #158
wernercd wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

and it's still more important to have free speech because who decides "truth" and "lie"... and what happens when those in power switch and the other side decides. Want Biden or Obama to have some power? Are you going to be okay with Bush or Trump gets that power?

Political parties and Presidents don't decide what truth is and what lies are in the United States, or other free countries.

Yes they can. They cannot enforce their decisions directly. They can certainly influence, and perhaps even form alliances that propagate those decisions. With those alliances, some decisions can be made into law.
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