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Alex Jones must pay $50m in punitive damages for Sandy Hook hoax claim

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Alex Jones must pay $50m in punitive damages for Sandy Hook hoax claim

#141

Post by somewhat_drunk »

golergka wrote: post #116
spuz wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is it about this trial that stands out to you? I can tell you it's a very unusual example of a civil trial in the US so I'm not sure how it is supposed to compare with a criminal trial in Russia.

The fact that it is recorded and available to the wide audience. The fact that the prosecution actually had to present evidence. The fact that a wide audience actually cares about this trial. The fact that this trial is covered by the media. The fact that the whole trial takes more than half an hour. The fact that the defendant only risks his money but not his freedom.

Yes, despite our rhetoric to the contrary, the rule of law is still quite strong in the USA.

Thank fucking god.

Re: Alex Jones must pay $50m in punitive damages for Sandy Hook hoax claim

#142

Post by sleepybrett »

noduerme wrote: post #103
gerdesj wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I'm a supporter of Jones being able to spread whatever insane theories" I think you are a supporter of freedom of speech in general - that's something I thoroughly approve of too. I also think you are able to understand the difference between seeing a horrendous crime and seeing that crime and attempting to profit from it. That seems to be what this bloke did: He tried to change and engorge the narrative regarding t…

>> He tried to convince the world that the crime didn't actually happen and even worse tried to convince the world that the dead were actors and other nonsense. I'm a Jewish grandson of Holocaust survivors. I'm also American. I'm pretty happy our country has not adopted laws against holocaust denial in the way Germany or Canada have. I appreciate the thought behind those laws. But I appreciate freedom of speech more.…

They might jail him for perjury though...

Re: Alex Jones must pay $50m in punitive damages for Sandy Hook hoax claim

#144

Post by scott_s »

eyelidlessness wrote: post #61
dragonwriter wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Ignoring that Jones is a garbage human and just focusing on the case: that isn’t protected free speech? No, while there are Constitutional limits (especially when the injured party is a public figure, see NY Times v. Sullivan ), deliberate and often also reckless, harmful falsehood is not protected speech. > Does this set a precedent that anyone who spouts conspiracy theories about an event is targetable by those w…

> deliberate and often also reckless, harmful falsehood is not protected speech IANAL (I am not a lawyer; and IANAAJA—I am not an Alex Jones apologist), but I think deserves qualification. My understanding is that it’s not the falsehood which is restricted, it’s the damage caused by purveying the falsehood. If I’m not mistaken I can claim (anywhere under US jurisdiction, unless under oath or otherwise legally sworn t…

Publishing falsehoods about other people is not always protected speech. (Whether the other people are considered “public” or “private” changes the standards for deciding if the speech is protected.)

Re: Alex Jones must pay $50m in punitive damages for Sandy Hook hoax claim

#145

Post by [deleted] »

d0mine wrote: post #119
tootie wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I fervently believe that there's no practical way for government to regulate speech so they shouldn't try. If there were a magic way to stop people like Jones from talking that wouldn't chill free speech in general, I'd take it in a heartbeat. He's not contributing to the marketplace of ideas. He's spreading lies deliberately for his personal profit.

There is practical and very much effective way: it is called propaganda: you don't need to regulate speech if you can control what people think (and national security, wokeism will take care of the rest).

[deleted]

Re: Alex Jones must pay $50m in punitive damages for Sandy Hook hoax claim

#146

Post by thfuran »

krapp wrote: post #118
tootie wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I fervently believe that there's no practical way for government to regulate speech so they shouldn't try. If there were a magic way to stop people like Jones from talking that wouldn't chill free speech in general, I'd take it in a heartbeat. He's not contributing to the marketplace of ideas. He's spreading lies deliberately for his personal profit.

So you agree that Alex Jones is deliberately spreading lies for personal profit, and that this is harmful, but believe there shouldn't be any laws against it or any punishment for the consequences? Does that include the judgement he's facing now? Governments have been regulating speech since the beginning of governments. Every society doesn't exist in a state of maximal speech oppression as a result, so it cannot be…

>so it cannot be the case that any attempt to regulate speech chills free speech in general.

That does not follow. It only follows that it doesn't chill free speech maximally.

Re: Alex Jones must pay $50m in punitive damages for Sandy Hook hoax claim

#147

Post by omnicognate »

IronWolve wrote: post #30

The judge found him guilty of withholding evidence and did a summary judgement of guilty, and moved to the damages portion with a jury. Which is strange, skipping over the evidence trial and going straight to damages. They didnt say what the evidence being withheld was, and no video evidence against him. Thats what would have been interesting to see, the videos the case was based on. Banes Law did a good comment on t…

The two people in that "Barnes Law" video engage in an extremely dishonest form of argument. According to them, the fact that somebody cannot name the specific evidence Jones' lawyers were ordered to produce in discovery somehow negates any views they might hold on the case, including that the default (not summary) judgement was fair. It's a cheap rhetorical trick for use when one has no better argument: come up with some detail one's opponent doesn't have to hand and attempt to claim that because they can't immediately answer that specific question they must therefore be wrong about everything. The use of this form of argument is in itself a strong indicator of bad faith.

IANAL, but with a bit of Googling I found one of the requested items of discovery detailed in the Plaintiff's motion for expedited disovery at [1], in the letter from 2018 quoted at the end. It's a specific InfoWars video segment from 2017 that was no longer publicly available as it had been removed by Youtube and Facebook. Rather than provide this video or explain that (and why) they couldn't, the defendant's lawyers simply ignored the discovery request for more than 2 years, despite the court granting the motion for expedited discovery in october 2019. This and numerous other abuses were the reason for the default judgement [2].

This information is available if you go looking for it. A lot more is presumably available if you have access to the necessary resources: Lexis Nexis, etc. However, the fact that some particular individual doesn't know it off the top of their head obviously has absolutely no bearing on whether the default judgement was reasonable.

[1] https://infowarslawsuit.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/2018-...

[2] https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/21074211-alex-jones-...

Re: Alex Jones must pay $50m in punitive damages for Sandy Hook hoax claim

#148

Post by bumblebritches5 »

noduerme wrote: post #103
gerdesj wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I'm a supporter of Jones being able to spread whatever insane theories" I think you are a supporter of freedom of speech in general - that's something I thoroughly approve of too. I also think you are able to understand the difference between seeing a horrendous crime and seeing that crime and attempting to profit from it. That seems to be what this bloke did: He tried to change and engorge the narrative regarding t…

>> He tried to convince the world that the crime didn't actually happen and even worse tried to convince the world that the dead were actors and other nonsense. I'm a Jewish grandson of Holocaust survivors. I'm also American. I'm pretty happy our country has not adopted laws against holocaust denial in the way Germany or Canada have. I appreciate the thought behind those laws. But I appreciate freedom of speech more.…

No post body was provided.

Re: Alex Jones must pay $50m in punitive damages for Sandy Hook hoax claim

#149

Post by ajsnigrutin »

jollybean wrote: post #122
tootie wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I fervently believe that there's no practical way for government to regulate speech so they shouldn't try. If there were a magic way to stop people like Jones from talking that wouldn't chill free speech in general, I'd take it in a heartbeat. He's not contributing to the marketplace of ideas. He's spreading lies deliberately for his personal profit.

There are plenty of very practical ways to legislate speech, we already do it all over the place. We don't live in this legal abyss, most institutions make decisions for their business, but also for what they view to be higher, civic purposes. Cable and Broadcast TV standards aren't just about profit maximization, they're kind of there to set a 'decency precedent'. I mean, for the same reason you don't see 'porn ever…

But there are not...

> The question will be perennially 'what to enforce and why' but we definitely already have standards.

Yes, but each of us has a different standards.

In usa for example, they have "the nipplegate" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Bowl_XXXVIII_halftime_sh... where one nipple (a thing kids hang on for some time, then are disallowed to see for a few years, then want to hang on again,... and well, girls see in the mirror every day) causes such controversy...

...and in the country of my birth (yugoslavia), even in the "dark socialist times", you had nipples on public tv in a milk commercial - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYhaHhpLKag&t=21s

It's same with speech, you might agree with your own personal standards, but many others don't, some believe in absulute free speech, and some want to censor what they believe to be "hate speech".

This is again one of those things where people say that they agree to a standard of what is and what should not be free speech, but each has their own standard incompatible with the other ones.

Re: Alex Jones must pay $50m in punitive damages for Sandy Hook hoax claim

#150

Post by nineplay »

noduerme wrote: post #103
gerdesj wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I'm a supporter of Jones being able to spread whatever insane theories" I think you are a supporter of freedom of speech in general - that's something I thoroughly approve of too. I also think you are able to understand the difference between seeing a horrendous crime and seeing that crime and attempting to profit from it. That seems to be what this bloke did: He tried to change and engorge the narrative regarding t…

>> He tried to convince the world that the crime didn't actually happen and even worse tried to convince the world that the dead were actors and other nonsense. I'm a Jewish grandson of Holocaust survivors. I'm also American. I'm pretty happy our country has not adopted laws against holocaust denial in the way Germany or Canada have. I appreciate the thought behind those laws. But I appreciate freedom of speech more.…

> And I do have faith that sunlight is the best disinfectant, and that truth will prevail over lies.

I wish I had that faith but I think the Holocaust stands as a pretty big counter-argument. I'm genuinely curious about your faith, do you think that something could have been done in Germany in the 30s which would have preserved free speech and prevented the Holocaust?

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