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What is the cost of a cashless society?

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Re: What is the cost of a cashless society?

#221

Post by collegeburner »

csomar wrote: post #136
grecy wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am always amazed at how often people in the US mention cheques. Banking in the US is like going back in time 20 years. Even when I flew through Dallas and LAX during the height of COVID I had to hand my credit card over for someone to swipe, then pickup a pen that thousands of others had touched to sign a piece of paper. I've been tapping to pay exclusively for years and forgot about all that ancient stuff.

Most places in the US accept Apple Pay now. I think it's harsh to judge the whole country based on a few exceptions. The US is also huge which means some people are going to stick to the old way of doing things.

Uhh no that is not true in lots of places. Probably highly region and demographic dependent tho. Also apple pay alone is not a solution, no way am i paying for some overpriced iphone bc "oh were cashless now and only take apple pay".

Re: What is the cost of a cashless society?

#222

Post by starkd »

BiteCode_dev wrote: post #201

The article is very superficial about cost. It's not just about money, it's about freedom and democracy. A cashless society, like everything with computer, information control or centralize power, is fine when you are riding the happy path. As soon as you are not inline with society, or that slthe system itself become no more adapted to it's context, it's a nightmare.

Indeed. This is why a digital currency is only viable if you have the ability to make anonymous third party transactions. Until then, I remain a hard no. But even bitcoin doesn't truly offer that.

Re: What is the cost of a cashless society?

#223

Post by collegeburner »

wink wrote: post #220
hypertele-Xii wrote: post #179

My biggest fear is not cashless society, it's humanless payment processing. If you think losing access to your Google account for unspecified terms violations is bad, what about a payment processing computer malfunctioning? A few years ago my debit card refused checkout at a supermarket. After the cashier rebooted the card reader machine, it ate a hundred bucks from my account without confirming the purchase. When I…

The ATM in Cuba ate my VISA on a Friday night while on vacation. That was a fun diversion getting it back. And on an actual disaster scale that ranks pretty low, as we had a second card (with a low limit) and still some amount of cash, so we weren't even completely out of money. Maybe it's better if you're somewhere close to home... but on the other hand if everyone is cashless, who could you borrow money from? Maybe…

[flagged]

Re: What is the cost of a cashless society?

#224

Post by collegeburner »

TheFattestNinja wrote: post #175

This twitter thread might be a bit extreme, but it raises interesting points ( https://twitter.com/punk6529/status/1494444624630403083?lang... ). Basically, if you are not allowed to spend money (transact) then you are really not able to exercise your other rights. And if everything was cashless there is an actual risk of Gov or BigBank having the power to stop you transacting completely. It has happened in 1st world…

I would not it put it past governments to shut down some types of payments if there was another lockdown. "Oh sorry it doesn't look like that's an essential business wait just 14 days!"

Re: What is the cost of a cashless society?

#225

Post by MrYellowP »

BiteCode_dev wrote: post #201

The article is very superficial about cost. It's not just about money, it's about freedom and democracy. A cashless society, like everything with computer, information control or centralize power, is fine when you are riding the happy path. As soon as you are not inline with society, or that slthe system itself become no more adapted to it's context, it's a nightmare.

> when you are riding the happy path.

You've mistyped "when you submit to the correct groupthink."

Re: What is the cost of a cashless society?

#227

Post by starkd »

EdwardDiego wrote: post #91

New Zealand has gone largely cashless (and entirely chequeless). Everyone is paid by direct credit to their account. You pay your bills via direct credit / debit. I don't think any bank is charging fees (for customers) for electronic transactions via card, or direct credits/debits. They don't even charge a fee for using another bank's ATM anymore. I am always amazed at how often people in the US mention cheques. NZ r…

Sure, it's convenient for now. You never know what turn society is going to take somewhere down the line. The government is in a much better position to dictate rules for all of your commerce. Whether that happens in a few years or decades from now is anybody's guess, but the temptation to excercise that power is all the more likely.

Re: What is the cost of a cashless society?

#228

Post by silvestrov »

EdwardDiego wrote: post #91

New Zealand has gone largely cashless (and entirely chequeless). Everyone is paid by direct credit to their account. You pay your bills via direct credit / debit. I don't think any bank is charging fees (for customers) for electronic transactions via card, or direct credits/debits. They don't even charge a fee for using another bank's ATM anymore. I am always amazed at how often people in the US mention cheques. NZ r…

Same in Denmark (Northern Scandinavia) which has gone all-in on this. Denmark is an almost cashless society. It is seldom I see people paying cash in the supermarket. Cheques are no longer valid here: you cannot get cheques, you cannot pay with them.

Canada is not nearly as cashless as the article makes it out to be, it is amusing how much the article ignores the rest of the world.

The people hit by cashless are not the poor ones, but old people who have trouble learning to do things a new way. This also applies to communication with hospitals and docters which also is done online today in Denmark. So the cash problem is not special.

Cashless is better for the homeless as it is much harder to rob money from a cashless person. Digital payments can be traced (it took a few years for robbers in Denmark to learn this).

Banks in Denmark are required by law to give you a simple account and debit card. Governments pay out money by transfering them to your bank account. You tell the goverment which bank account you want to receive money on, like a default shipping address.

We have a very good domestic version of paypal which makes it very easy to pay other people (just type in their phone number and you can send them money). So it is easier to pay friends using this system than to use cash!

Re: What is the cost of a cashless society?

#229

Post by LinuxBender »

bluedino wrote: post #219
kurthr wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the US checks (cheques) are used mostly for significant transactions, because it acts as a contract. As a consumer you can easily get away with using electronic or credit/debit transactions for almost everything. However, some transactions over $5-10k are worth using checks. If you get a car loan, you don't need a check, but if you pay "cash" then a check is most likely preferred by you and the dealer. For house d…

Most grandmas are still writing checks for groceries. It's also not uncommon for people 50+ to 'not trust' debit cards, ATM's, etc as well.

I am in that group but for me it is less about biological age and more about experience.

I have had many experiences with ATM's and ATM networks being offline. Card processors being DDoS'd while I was trying to buy something at the store. Card terminals being hacked and "offline for maintenance". Card terminals offline but nobody knows why. Many of the card terminals here are dirty and won't read the chip. It is not my card, many people have these problems. I have to explain how to clean the readers to the clerks and their managers. When traveling cross-country this is not just an inconvenience, it is a road-trip stopper unless one has cash. Cash does not go offline.

3 days ago I had to help a friend that was stuck at the store with no cash and their card was not working. Their account was fine but the card system was offline for unknown reasons. I gave them cash and we were on our way. Now they know to keep cash on them.

Adding to this is the way ACH/wire transfers work gives me exactly zero confidence in the banking system. Sure, I might be able to eventually get my money back. Banks have the security of a high-school locker sitting in a dark alley as very little information about me is required to empty an account with zero interaction on my part. This information is leaked by online websites from every sector all the time. I just use banks as a small caching/broker system for online transactions and I watch my accounts like a hawk. If banks want to hold more money they need to entirely redesign that system and I know I am definitely not alone in this way of thinking and it isn't just people age 50+. Many in the hacker communities that work for banks are also aware of their vulnerabilities. I was part of that community when I worked for a bank.

Re: What is the cost of a cashless society?

#230

Post by _8j50 »

BiteCode_dev wrote: post #201

The article is very superficial about cost. It's not just about money, it's about freedom and democracy. A cashless society, like everything with computer, information control or centralize power, is fine when you are riding the happy path. As soon as you are not inline with society, or that slthe system itself become no more adapted to it's context, it's a nightmare.

In short:liberty.

You can have cashless shit but don't take cash as an option for the rest of us. Another way of sayinf cashless is "tracked and logged payment transactions with regulated participation in commerce".

Straitght up, revelations level scary stuff.

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