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Australian activist can't use encrypted apps, must let police access phone

abc.net.au

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Re: Australian activist can't use encrypted apps, must let police access phone

#351
post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Junta has a trillion dollars a year to do whatever evils it wishes to the world. I don't think any of the generals are going to be butt-hurt about being fired, especially when the revolving door between the CFR and the JCoS is so well-greased with the blood of innocent people across the globe. The goal isn't local power, that is a done deal - the purpose of the junta is the projection of global power. The proof i…

A Junta is an oligarchy lead by a military council. The US literally has civilian rule, you're misapplying the term. Myanmar has a junta, the US does not.

>A Junta is an oligarchy lead by a military council.

The USA has exactly this, in the form of the revolving door that connects the Joint Chiefs of Staff with the CFR.

https://www.opensecrets.org/revolving/

See also: https://s3.amazonaws.com/docs.pogo.org/report/2018/POGO_Bras...

Its figureheads give the impression of democracy, but nobody voted to murder 5% of Iraqs population - the generals went ahead and did it anyway.

Re: Australian activist can't use encrypted apps, must let police access phone

#352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Read the Talmud. Then proceed to read the Church Fathers through to the scholastics. Add Justinian for good measure. The roots of (real) liberalism are all there in these largely theological treatises including the inalienable right of the people to revolt against the state when it becomes tyrannical (see Juan de Mariana).

thanks for the reply, its appreciated but as someone who has only passing familiarity with those, is it possible to provide a list (for example) without having to read all those first?

Hi! This thread looks friendly and productive, so I'll bite :) Here are 4 core judeo-christian ideas that I find helpful on this topic:

1. Transcendent morality. If morality is to be resilient, it must transcend culture, preference, etc., otherwise it can be changed or over-turned as convenient. If morality is purely relative, a matter of agreement, then the concept of an inalienable right is not meaningful. Philosophy has tried to find a different ground for morality, as the parents mentioned -- but that has not been successful, and I don't think that it can be.

The judeo-christian perspective here is of course that moral standards come from God, thus they are absolute and transcend our opinions. More specifically, they are not "law" per se, but something deeper: They reflect God's character, which _defines_ morality. I.e., God _is_ morality. For instance, Love and Justice are core moral standards because God is Loving and Just, or more precisely, we learn what Love and Justice are by looking at God.

2. The _Imago Dei_. This is the idea that makes transcendent morality applicable to humans. Morality needs to be universally applicable in order to be sustainable, otherwise it's trivial to enact restrictions -- e.g., that it need not apply to the rulers, to Jews, to Republicans or Democrats, to Muslim minorities in China... The Imago Dei is the notion that humans are created in God's image, and therefore have inalienable dignity _deriving from his_. This notion is different from more utilitarian ideas that we have worth and dignity based on e.g. our intelligence, ability or so on, and is a prime defense against all kinds of "lebensunwertes Leben" (being the nazi phrase) ideas. Incidentally, this is also why Christians are so opposed to abortion and have been since forever (roman times and even Old Testament times): The idea that the worth of the baby is not dependent on their awareness, ability or whatever (which many disabled or ill people also do not have), but on on their humanity as such.

Historically, anything from due process to property rights has been argued from this: Much of it in Old Testament times, e.g. but by far not limited to the well-known 10 commandments, then much more in New Testament times, which was then expanded upon by the early church fathers and christian-influenced philosophy. The abolition of slavery and much enlightening thinking might well not have emerged in a different context.

3. Universal Sin. The concept that all human beings are fallen and in need of redemption is what makes morality and safeguards necessary in practice. This is the knowledge that there is no _inherent_ difference between e.g. nazis and me -- I am equally capable of such atrocities if left to myself. Therefore, ordered liberty is required - government, law, and institutions to guide and restrain us. The acknowledgment of Universal Sin promotes compassion, because no-one is intrinsically worse than me: This strengthens the practical value of the Imago Dei and weakens us-versus-them ideologies like nazism or intersectionality. It also both requires and limits government, since an effective form of government needs to take the sin of the government into account as well as that of the population. This is where separate branches of government, checks and balances, (mostly electoral) accountability and related ideas were derived from.

4. _Subsidiarity_. This is the concept that the smaller and closer the unit or relationship is, the more crucial and stable it is. This ties in to 3., because the effects of sin compound with larger and more abstract units. Sin also has much more pull if given more room - see Lord Acton's famous quote about power and corruption :) I.e., it's much easier to be compassionate and efficient towards a wife or neighbor than towards "Comrade nr 25556 of the district of Eurasia". This idea has led to a strong emphasis on the family, neighborhood and local church as core institutions where the primary "government" is better placed, as opposed to a large and anonymous bureaucracy. This is were representation, federalism, small government and related ideas come from, and incidentally, why I find the US Constitution as intended far superior than the direction American politics has taken in the last 100 years (big government, bureaucracy, centralization, homogenization).

I hope this helps you understand me a bit, I'm looking forward to continue this conversation! :)

Re: Australian activist can't use encrypted apps, must let police access phone

#353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

thanks for the reply, its appreciated but as someone who has only passing familiarity with those, is it possible to provide a list (for example) without having to read all those first?

Hi! This thread looks friendly and productive, so I'll bite :) Here are 4 core judeo-christian ideas that I find helpful on this topic: 1. Transcendent morality. If morality is to be resilient, it must transcend culture, preference, etc., otherwise it can be changed or over-turned as convenient. If morality is purely relative, a matter of agreement, then the concept of an inalienable right is not meaningful. Philosop…

thanks, i appreciate your taking the time to respond

one thing i guess is that a lot of this comes from many thinkers and philosophers over the years, but what i guess i was more interested in was direct connections for example, "the idea of universal suffrage can be traced to book xx verse yy in the bible" or "gay rights can find support in the talmud xyz" etc... that kind of thing...

i guess its not so clear-cut maybe?

Re: Australian activist can't use encrypted apps, must let police access phone

#354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gay marriage isn't illegal in any state.

not yet, but interracial marriage historically was [0], so why should it be any different for gay marriage? (genuinely curious) [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interracial_marriage_in_the_Un...

Slavery was also historically legal but isn't any longer. I don't get what interracial marriage being illegal once upon a time has to do with anything.

Re: Australian activist can't use encrypted apps, must let police access phone

#355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hi! This thread looks friendly and productive, so I'll bite :) Here are 4 core judeo-christian ideas that I find helpful on this topic: 1. Transcendent morality. If morality is to be resilient, it must transcend culture, preference, etc., otherwise it can be changed or over-turned as convenient. If morality is purely relative, a matter of agreement, then the concept of an inalienable right is not meaningful. Philosop…

thanks, i appreciate your taking the time to respond one thing i guess is that a lot of this comes from many thinkers and philosophers over the years, but what i guess i was more interested in was direct connections for example, "the idea of universal suffrage can be traced to book xx verse yy in the bible" or "gay rights can find support in the talmud xyz" etc... that kind of thing... i guess its not so clear-cut ma…

It depends, some topics are explicit and others are implicit within a larger world view that you cannot really pick and choose parts from. It seems to me that that entire world view is the critical part, because otherwise any single biblical command can just be ignored anyway if we don't like it. At the end of the day, either we are all made in God's image and have God-given inalienable rights --- in which case the government has no right to take them away --- or morality is relative, and who's to say that Chinas approach to human rights is inferior to ours? Or that those pesky flat-earthers deserve not being in prison? And so on :)

There is of course much morality that one can give chapter and verse for. This includes "big" things like murder and theft, and more subtle things like fair wages, due process and government for the people.

Re: Australian activist can't use encrypted apps, must let police access phone

#356
post #336
post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are aware that the government can just drone strike you, right? Or have a cop gun you down (with qualified immunity, they won't even get any punishment!)

Yes. But that's a far-cry from where we are now. There are americans in positions of authority who would happily wield that type of violence against other americans. There are also americans in positions of authority who would be unhappy about it. Imagine telling a bunch of 20 year olds in the national guard they're going to kill some dangerous domestic terrorists. Imagine What happens if they don't think those peopl…

With how the average cop/soldier of american origin acts, half of them would have fired the bullet before you finished the sentence "domestic terrorist".

Re: Australian activist can't use encrypted apps, must let police access phone

#357
post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> cant your government just change it? Short answer: no. The federal government (Congress) can propose amendments, but ratification requires the approval of a 2/3 majority of the 50 states' legislatures (38/50). And remember that in the US, the governments of each state are not just sub-divisions of the federal government, but totally distinct entities with their own constitutions, legislatures, elections, etc. The f…

> So, to change the US Constitution, 39 separate governments need to agree, In practice, you simply need the minimum majority of the supreme court to agree with an 'interpretation' of the constitution that gives you what you want.

Well if you want to follow that line of argument, the Supreme Court is irrelevant since the executive branch or military can just choose to ignore its rulings.

But assuming the rule of law still exists, there is no way the Supreme Court would be able to "interpret" the Constitution to allow amendments in another way. The Constitution is very explicit about the amendment process, and it has been performed by that process 27 times to date. No way to "interpret" your way out of that.

(OK, yes, I know constitutional conventions are another route. But that has never been tried.)

Re: Australian activist can't use encrypted apps, must let police access phone

#358
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Always has been. Look at their censorship regime for a start.

You've posted this three times on this thread now without elaborating. What "censorship regime" are you talking about? I know that age ratings around video games are a little silly there (until 2012 there was no R18 rating for video games but there was for Movies/TV, so certain titles couldn't be sold there without modifications).

There’s a wikipedia article that covers it better than I could in a post, but censorship of books, movies, games and the Internet is common there.

Re: Australian activist can't use encrypted apps, must let police access phone

#359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Breaking windows sounds more like physical damage

I'm not sure what else "economic damage" could refer to that isn't some sort of physical cost? If, say, an activist uses social media to incite people to blockade a road, making 10k people an hour late for work, that's up to 10k less hours of stuff done^1. That's a cost, even if it's a "virtual" one. Say x% of those people worked in healthcare, that's x00 hours less healthcare done, and that's people killed in expect…

I might have been wrong. I thought that "economic damage" means something like release some bad press release, which wipes a lot of economic value from stock prices.

Re: Australian activist can't use encrypted apps, must let police access phone

#360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

not yet, but interracial marriage historically was [0], so why should it be any different for gay marriage? (genuinely curious) [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interracial_marriage_in_the_Un...

Slavery was also historically legal but isn't any longer. I don't get what interracial marriage being illegal once upon a time has to do with anything.

interracial marriage was illegal in many states up until the late 60's -hardly once upon a time- and i might add that republicans are known recently to say they are after interracial marriage as well [1]

[1] https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/braun-supreme-court-inter...

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