What is the cost of a cashless society? • Hacker News Board

Re: What is the cost of a cashless society?

#161

Post by mdp2021 » Fri, Aug 05, 2022, 9:10 AM UTC

imtringued wrote: post #112

cmroanirgo wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Due to government tactics, a lot of australians are now deliberately using cash a) for the privacy b) as a statement against orwellian mechanisms. I find it really sad when people are blaise about something that once gone, can't be put back. A social credit system, & everyone talking about it as an inevitable thing, have already bought into the propaganda. I find it inevitable that with sentiments like that, that i'l…

There are anonymous payment services. Just mandate the use of those in the laws.

> anonymous payment services

Could you please expand? In this area, the only ones available I found have a surcharge of ~5..10% (you buy a 100€ card through 105€..110€). Note: I am not certain of the amount, it has been a while since I used one.

And in Europe electronic payments cannot by law be anonymous over 150€.

Re: What is the cost of a cashless society?

#162

Post by LatteLazy » Fri, Aug 05, 2022, 9:10 AM UTC

If you actually want to only do business in cash, you're already going to have a very bad time. 95% of jobs (99.9% of decent paying or professional or large company jobs) won't pay you in cash. The same for any sort of loan or finance (who can you borrow money from without leaving an electronic trail?). What sort of landlord or mortgage company will accept actual cash? Can you pay the tax man with it (probably but good luck).

The truth is, you're already in a cashless society for the vast majority of your income and expenses.

Re: What is the cost of a cashless society?

#163

Post by MomoXenosaga » Fri, Aug 05, 2022, 9:12 AM UTC

EdwardDiego wrote: post #91

New Zealand has gone largely cashless (and entirely chequeless). Everyone is paid by direct credit to their account. You pay your bills via direct credit / debit. I don't think any bank is charging fees (for customers) for electronic transactions via card, or direct credits/debits. They don't even charge a fee for using another bank's ATM anymore. I am always amazed at how often people in the US mention cheques. NZ r…

Same situation in the Netherlands. I have a 20 euro bill in my wallet for emergencies when the electronic payment system is down.

I think 70% of transactions are electronic these days.

Re: What is the cost of a cashless society?

#164

Post by Findecanor » Fri, Aug 05, 2022, 9:13 AM UTC

Arch485 wrote: post #68

I am certainly not pro-cashless, but the points this article makes are lackluster at best. In an entirely cashless society, the problem isn't that "not everyone is included", the problem is surveillance. You can solve inclusion easily enough... Replace cash with prepaid cards (an idea posed in the article), or issue small, purpose-built digital wallets (equivalent to a low-power smartphone, except only for managing y…

You're overlooking a couple of things: person-to-person transactions, and the disabled/impaired.

Among those who protest the most against a cashless society are interest groups for the elderly and the handicapped. The blind need their money amounts to be tactile, well ... because they need almost everything they interact with to be.

You can't use prepaid cards for person-to-person transactions, but there are various types of smartphone apps. But then you are back to the original problem in the article. And you need to have good eye sight to use those too, so you can't be too old. And a good signal to the nearest tower, which rules out rural areas.

.. and no service disruptions.

Re: What is the cost of a cashless society?

#165

Post by MomoXenosaga » Fri, Aug 05, 2022, 9:14 AM UTC

grecy wrote: post #126

EdwardDiego wrote: post #91

New Zealand has gone largely cashless (and entirely chequeless). Everyone is paid by direct credit to their account. You pay your bills via direct credit / debit. I don't think any bank is charging fees (for customers) for electronic transactions via card, or direct credits/debits. They don't even charge a fee for using another bank's ATM anymore. I am always amazed at how often people in the US mention cheques. NZ r…

> I am always amazed at how often people in the US mention cheques. Banking in the US is like going back in time 20 years. Even when I flew through Dallas and LAX during the height of COVID I had to hand my credit card over for someone to swipe, then pickup a pen that thousands of others had touched to sign a piece of paper. I've been tapping to pay exclusively for years and forgot about all that ancient stuff.

Yes COVID for me was the final push to go completely cashless.

Re: What is the cost of a cashless society?

#166

Post by mdp2021 » Fri, Aug 05, 2022, 9:15 AM UTC

tboyd47 wrote: post #8

kevincox wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you give me the choice between being able to buy a loaf of bread and having my payments private I'm feeding myself ten times out of ten. I'm not saying that privacy isn't important but I don't think it is the main problem compared to people being unable to use currency.

I'd feed myself nine times and eat leftovers on the tenth. Privacy isn't the most important thing in the world but it's shortsighted to just throw it out the window. You don't need it 'til you need it. It's okay to be friends with people who can't keep a secret but you need to have at least one friend who can.

> Privacy isn't the most important thing in the world

For you. It very strongly depends on the cultural profile. Other people place it on totally radical grounds.

Re: What is the cost of a cashless society?

#167

Post by qabqabaca » Fri, Aug 05, 2022, 9:16 AM UTC

phist_mcgee wrote: post #155

kurthr wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the US checks (cheques) are used mostly for significant transactions, because it acts as a contract. As a consumer you can easily get away with using electronic or credit/debit transactions for almost everything. However, some transactions over $5-10k are worth using checks. If you get a car loan, you don't need a check, but if you pay "cash" then a check is most likely preferred by you and the dealer. For house d…

I think that's a solution looking for a problem. Payment via bank transfer is also a contract, the dispute resolution is no different. I don't see how a promise note on a piece of paper somehow protects you better than an electronic transfer that is visible to you, the other party, the bank, and to authorities.

Agree. It's like Stockholm Syndrome. It comes across the same as when someone from the US tries to argue that putting the month before the day actually makes sense in dates because then the max values go from lowest to highest (12/31/9999+).

Re: What is the cost of a cashless society?

#168

Post by notpushkin » Fri, Aug 05, 2022, 9:23 AM UTC

imtringued wrote: post #120

AinderS wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is precisely my point. The ability to prevent you from buying a loaf of bread will be used for control.

You must be really naive if you think that isn't the case already. Imagine a bitcoin standard where the rich own all the Bitcoin and governments force you to use Bitcoin. The rich have no reason to lend you Bitcoin for free, you don't need the Bitcoin, you need the loaf of bread and you are willing to trade your time for that loaf of bread but since the middleman Bitcoin was inserted, you are forced to borrow in the…

This is exactly why we shouldn't let governments force us to use any currency. We don't have a currency problem, we have a government problem.

Re: What is the cost of a cashless society?

#169

Post by mdp2021 » Fri, Aug 05, 2022, 9:24 AM UTC

desas wrote: post #152

john_the_writer wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if you get arrested because you buy a pride flag? Or if you get killed because you use a service? What if you get arrested because you sold a train ticket to someone who doesn't have enough "social credit" to buy said train ticket?

Then your society has bigger problems than how purchases are carried out.

> your society has bigger problems

It does not. A psychically deficient society expresses its "illness"¹ in many different ways, all with the same root.

(¹Both "evil", original sense, and "malfunction", translated sense. 'Illness' is a good term for this context.)

Re: What is the cost of a cashless society?

#170

Post by MomoXenosaga » Fri, Aug 05, 2022, 9:26 AM UTC

creakingstairs wrote: post #87

AnotherGoodName wrote: post #32

Australia's been cashless for a long time now and has no laws requiring acceptance of cash so a lot of places are cashless only. Even the old lady who has a tea and snack cart at the train station is cashless here. I'll state some benefits: Public transport becomes much better. You tap your card or phone and never bother with the hassle of a ticket ever again. You probably never realized just how much of a barrier th…

But you can have almost all of that while still having cash! I can see the benefit of security for some people (eg train lady) and that could be one of exceptions but I believe most places should be mandated to take cash payments as privacy and redundancy should prioritised more than ever. We know from experience that government, whether totalitarian or not, can abuse any power they have. That’s why we have checks an…

You never worked in a store that got robbed?

I saw a video once of a bus driver who got a shotgun shoved into his face. Those things no longer happen now.