Live data from Hacker News

What is the cost of a cashless society?

thewalrus.ca

141–150 of 294 posts

Re: What is the cost of a cashless society?

#141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except you haven't really to almost anyone because now your comments are flagged dead and most people don't have showdead on.

>and most people don't have showdead on. Well, that's on them. Lots of valuable comments get flagged. You have a point though. If snobbery and walking in eggshells is what's valued here, why waste my time?

[deleted]

Re: What is the cost of a cashless society?

#142
UPI (Unified Payments Interface) transactions using VPA (Virtual Payment Address) are free for now. Around 6 billion transactions are processed every month. But apparently the Indian govt is planning on adding a 50 paise (₹0.5; $1 ≈ ₹80) transaction fee in the future.

Re: What is the cost of a cashless society?

#143
post #45

Australia's been cashless for a long time now and has no laws requiring acceptance of cash so a lot of places are cashless only. Even the old lady who has a tea and snack cart at the train station is cashless here. I'll state some benefits: Public transport becomes much better. You tap your card or phone and never bother with the hassle of a ticket ever again. You probably never realized just how much of a barrier th…

I love the sentiment of avoiding the totalitarian dictatorship but you don’t exactly have any control there. Technology is leverage and it can be used for evil, just as with IBM tabulating machines in nazi Germany

So what do you propose instead? Destroy all modern tabulating machines a.k.a. computers just in case they'll get misused by the government?

Then feel free to throw away that supercomputer in your pocket with advanced tracking capabilities into the nearest toilet and flush.

Keeping a healthy democracy and our leaders accountable is far better for everyone than going back to the stone age just in case someone might misuse tech.

And since you brought up Nazis using tabulating machines to abuse Jews, remember that the Nazis were also defeated thanks to computers to break their codes.

The tech arms race is still a thing whether you like it or not and there's no going back. If your government isn't developing advanced snooping, they'll have no issues buying said tools from a country who does (US, Israel, Italy, Sweden, etc.)

Re: What is the cost of a cashless society?

#144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except you haven't really to almost anyone because now your comments are flagged dead and most people don't have showdead on.

>and most people don't have showdead on. Well, that's on them. Lots of valuable comments get flagged. You have a point though. If snobbery and walking in eggshells is what's valued here, why waste my time?

Walking on eggshells is what built the human society since like forever. You can complain about fantasy wokeism online as much as you like, but in the real world a comment like the above would have gotten you punched in every corner of the world.

Re: What is the cost of a cashless society?

#145
I think a cashless society can work perfectly well. There's a single place that I still use cash with because they don't take card (probably avoiding tax) so every time I go there, I come back with change to tip to delivery people when I order food. Everything from my rent to my grocery shopping is done digitally and I honestly think it's great.

However, that's probably because I live in a debit-based country. Debit cards without overdraft capabilities should be readily available even to people with no financial skills because you can't use them to spend more than you earn, making the risk to the banks themselves minimal. The small fee paid for banking services is the only thing at risk and even that won't have much of an impact on the bank in general.

Some countries, most importantly probably the USA, almost exclusively operate on credit cards for digital money, which are practically quick instant loans that you don't want to think about. There's very little in there to limit your credit card spending to your actual income and some people are foolish or desperate enough to borrow money to pay off loans, with credit cards being one of the easiest options. People with poor or no financial skills will run up a debt and quickly stop qualifying for credit, and the end result is that they're dependent on cash or even something as archaic as cheques to transfer money in stores. The extreme impact credit scores can have in the States is mind boggling but it almost looks like people accept some shady third party evaluating their entire life for fraud risk as a normal thing.

If your standard modus operandi is spending money that you'll have to pay back later, I don't think your society can be cashless. Normalise debit cards as standard payment systems and almost everyone can qualify. Frauds will find themselves struggling to get an affordable bank account, but in a modern banking system there are plenty of alternatives available.

Based on this article, Canada clearly needs a banking overhaul for any cashless ambitions to stick without dire consequences.

Re: What is the cost of a cashless society?

#146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is an electronic record of a transaction any worse then being filmed by multiple cameras as you walked in to buy that bread? In my country, a warrant is required to access both sources of data.

It's an exceptionally flexible and convenient method of control. Earlier this year, donors to the truck convey protest in Canada had their bank accounts frozen. This wasn't a targeted list of "these 37 people have broken a law"--rather, it was a broad mandate to freeze accounts assocated with the protests, operationalized a bit differently by each bank. In a society where most businesses don't take cash anymore, this…

That is a myth.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-rcmp-banks-an...

Re: What is the cost of a cashless society?

#147
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that's the point: people will not be able to buy a loaf of bread if they don't meet with the system's approval. Look, I switched to completely contactless payment through my phone since Covid, and it's so convenient I'm not going back. And it's hard for me to imagine people who don't have access to a bank account or smartphone, but those people do exist, and they may eventually become unable to buy a loaf of brea…

>But that's the point: people will not be able to buy a loaf of bread if they don't meet with the system's approval. ... Seriously, your argument is that privacy violations will cause people to starve? not the fact that there is a currency monopoly and you can't issue your own currency and start your own regional economy from scratch if the currency is concentrated in the hands of rich people and hence cannot be used…

Were you able before to issue your own currency and start your own regional economy from scratch? Where and when?

Re: What is the cost of a cashless society?

#148
post #126

New Zealand has gone largely cashless (and entirely chequeless). Everyone is paid by direct credit to their account. You pay your bills via direct credit / debit. I don't think any bank is charging fees (for customers) for electronic transactions via card, or direct credits/debits. They don't even charge a fee for using another bank's ATM anymore. I am always amazed at how often people in the US mention cheques. NZ r…

> I am always amazed at how often people in the US mention cheques. Banking in the US is like going back in time 20 years. Even when I flew through Dallas and LAX during the height of COVID I had to hand my credit card over for someone to swipe, then pickup a pen that thousands of others had touched to sign a piece of paper. I've been tapping to pay exclusively for years and forgot about all that ancient stuff.

I think that backwardness is now a thing of the past.

Most developed countries I'm familiar with made cheap/free wire transfers the most fundamental banking product decades ago. The change was driven by the banks, because handling checks was expensive and there was too much fraud involved. The US never made the change, probably because there were too many banks that could not agree on anything. That doesn't matter much anymore, because online card payments and ACH transfers (which are technically not wire transfers) are prevalent.

Another thing that contributes to the perception of backwardness is that American credit card issuers never adopted chip and PIN like the rest of the developed world. Elsewhere, banks wanted to reduce fraud and accepted the need to remember PINs as a small price for that. In the US, banks could afford more fraud due to higher fees, and they chose convenience instead. But today, cards have chips without a PIN anyway, and swiping is used mostly as a rare fallback mechanism. And apps such as Apple Pay and Google Pay (or whatever it's called this week) are quickly removing the need for physical cards.

Re: What is the cost of a cashless society?

#149
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not naive, trolling.

Trolling is not per se bad. A good troll upsets people using their own arguments. A great troll however does this without them realising. A good troll results in downvotes and being called a troll. A great troll doesn't. So, a good troll, but not a great troll. Not however a bad troll. Nothing mentioned was not arguments people have not used. Perhaps apart from the cannabilism part. I vote '+3 Troll' if we're doing /…

>Nothing mentioned was not arguments people have not used.

Unnecessary double negative, and these aren't really arguments so much as rhetorical shortcuts. I'd say, "The buzz-words used are familiar".

Cannibalism? If I imagine ahead to the 2040s - if the world has too many people and resource are scarce, eating people rapidly reduces the footprint while providing needed rations. Further, imagine there's a set of people who are notoriously paranoid, superstitious, sexist, racist white-or-adjacent supremacists, idiots etc. And they are refusing at every turn to reasonably live in the safe, advanced system with the logistics necessary for long term human survival and eventual interstellar flourishing. Instead they are insisting on an archaically wasteful, hard-to-document way of life prone to runaway growth, proliferation and oppression, and we constantly need to quell unrest caused by patently false theories that originate from wherever their communication is able to go on unabated by effective moderation tools. Why is it seriously so wrong to kill them and eat them? All of the moral and religious traditions they hold to are clearly outdated, what if cannibalism was just another outdated principle? Maybe we only need to eat enough of them to make sure they never take over and spread. Eating it can be a helpful sign of loyalty, and a demoralization tool. At some point of evolutionary and transhuman divergence, it might be reasonable to admit they're like monkeys to us - and there are some existing traditional recipes for monkey meat.

Re: What is the cost of a cashless society?

#150

A bit of a rant. By January 2022 I hadn't used anything but Apple Pay for three years. But then my home country starts a war (which is terrible), and since the war was not approved by countries controlling the cashless technologies, immediately all my cards stop working, I am not allowed to get a new one anywhere in the world, my foreign currency bank accounts and retirement savings on brokerage accounts get frozen i…

This is the problem I have with Apple Pay, Google Pay, and any other international service taking over transaction responsibilities. Especially if they're based on puritan countries like the United States where opinions on products like adult entertainment and certain medical procedures can influence a company's ability to receive payment.

Almost any modern smartphone has an NFC chip to do contactless payments. Banks should have the capability of leveraging that through their own services instead of depending on Apple's/Google's pinky promise to always make payment available.

Banks can do contactless payments quite easily on Android so in my opinion they should have their own apps. I'm fine with them also offering GPay for customer convenience, but there should be a national fallback.

If you buy Apple, you're locking yourself in. My opinion is that this is a fault with Apple's ecosystem, though an argument can be made that this is what Apple users chose when they bought their iPhone. Regardless, the end result is the same and your capacity to send or receive payment can now go down the moment your government gets sanctioned.

Sure, the invasion of Ukraine is reason enough for sanctions in my book, but the American government has a reputation of manipulating the world to suit them best. No other country should rely on American companies to do basic things like payment, just like the USA shouldn't rely on foreign services to accomplish the same.

Post reply on HN