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What is the cost of a cashless society?

thewalrus.ca

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Re: What is the cost of a cashless society?

#91
New Zealand has gone largely cashless (and entirely chequeless). Everyone is paid by direct credit to their account. You pay your bills via direct credit / debit. I don't think any bank is charging fees (for customers) for electronic transactions via card, or direct credits/debits. They don't even charge a fee for using another bank's ATM anymore.

I am always amazed at how often people in the US mention cheques. NZ retailers moved away from cheques in the 90s due to their massive fraudulent use case (back when cheques were common, so was chequebook theft). The last banks that would accept cheques stopped doing so in 2020, IIRC.

You can use cash, but few people do. Parking machines have tap n pay. I really only need cash when the kids are having a bake sale or disco at school.

But as part of that shift, the Government owned bank ensures that anyone can have a bank account with no fees, no matter how spotty your previous track record.

Works for us. But I don't think we'll ever go cashless, there's no real desire to do so from anyone other than the people who have to pay to make the cash.

Re: What is the cost of a cashless society?

#92
post #5
post #2

According to the article, the main problem of a financial police state where you cannot so much as buy a loaf of bread without permission and surveillance from the payment system, is that not everyone is included.

If you give me the choice between being able to buy a loaf of bread and having my payments private I'm feeding myself ten times out of ten. I'm not saying that privacy isn't important but I don't think it is the main problem compared to people being unable to use currency.

What if you get arrested because you buy a pride flag? Or if you get killed because you use a service?

What if you get arrested because you sold a train ticket to someone who doesn't have enough "social credit" to buy said train ticket?

Re: What is the cost of a cashless society?

#93
post #2

According to the article, the main problem of a financial police state where you cannot so much as buy a loaf of bread without permission and surveillance from the payment system, is that not everyone is included.

How is an electronic record of a transaction any worse then being filmed by multiple cameras as you walked in to buy that bread?

In my country, a warrant is required to access both sources of data.

Re: What is the cost of a cashless society?

#94
post #41

Australia's been cashless for a long time now and has no laws requiring acceptance of cash so a lot of places are cashless only. Even the old lady who has a tea and snack cart at the train station is cashless here. I'll state some benefits: Public transport becomes much better. You tap your card or phone and never bother with the hassle of a ticket ever again. You probably never realized just how much of a barrier th…

In a cashless society there is a lot of information about people in few hands and you never know how this information will be used now or in the future. It can be a democracy or a dictatorship. The corruption is everywhere, the threshold is different.

That's not a problem in Australia. The LOT OF INFORMATION is really in the hands of a pile of people. Breaches in security (even medical systems) are almost weekly, so everyone really has access to all the info.

The police use bus passes to track criminals, and even the use of COVID check-ins are fair game.

Re: What is the cost of a cashless society?

#95

Australia's been cashless for a long time now and has no laws requiring acceptance of cash so a lot of places are cashless only. Even the old lady who has a tea and snack cart at the train station is cashless here. I'll state some benefits: Public transport becomes much better. You tap your card or phone and never bother with the hassle of a ticket ever again. You probably never realized just how much of a barrier th…

Australia is not cashless. New notes and coins are minted regularly. I still pay using cash, and increasingly so. Never once, ever, has there been a problem paying with cash, nor do I expect there to be.

For those online services that only accept cards, you can buy a gift card from the local post office or a few other locations & use that.

What you describe is my dystopian nightmare.

Re: What is the cost of a cashless society?

#96
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Australia has phone based drivers licenses This is news to me, out here on the West coast. Might have to look into that!

Travelling to the West coast i asked a fellow passenger "how far back should i wind my watch?". "About 20 years" came the reply. :D

NSW.. I've got a physical license. Where is it digital. What if you switch to a flip phone?

Re: What is the cost of a cashless society?

#97
post #89

Australia's been cashless for a long time now and has no laws requiring acceptance of cash so a lot of places are cashless only. Even the old lady who has a tea and snack cart at the train station is cashless here. I'll state some benefits: Public transport becomes much better. You tap your card or phone and never bother with the hassle of a ticket ever again. You probably never realized just how much of a barrier th…

Given Australia took the extraordinary step of violating UN Human Rights codes it agreed to when preventing citizens and in some cases foreign residents from leaving the country during the pandemic I'd say they're already on the way. After all, the action was unprecedented, contravened human rights and aligned their response with North Korea and China, the only other countries who have ever had such restrictions. Thi…

The relevant metric here is cumulative excess mortality, not current infection rate.

Re: What is the cost of a cashless society?

#98
post #46

Australia's been cashless for a long time now and has no laws requiring acceptance of cash so a lot of places are cashless only. Even the old lady who has a tea and snack cart at the train station is cashless here. I'll state some benefits: Public transport becomes much better. You tap your card or phone and never bother with the hassle of a ticket ever again. You probably never realized just how much of a barrier th…

> Australia has phone based drivers licenses This is news to me, out here on the West coast. Might have to look into that!

Whole you're looking, check out the digital identity act which completely contravenes the referendum we had (in the ?80's) which voted against having a national identity card.

Re: What is the cost of a cashless society?

#99

New Zealand has gone largely cashless (and entirely chequeless). Everyone is paid by direct credit to their account. You pay your bills via direct credit / debit. I don't think any bank is charging fees (for customers) for electronic transactions via card, or direct credits/debits. They don't even charge a fee for using another bank's ATM anymore. I am always amazed at how often people in the US mention cheques. NZ r…

> anyone can have a bank account with no fees, no matter how spotty your previous track record.

We're still working on that idea :(

Re: What is the cost of a cashless society?

#100
post #89

Australia's been cashless for a long time now and has no laws requiring acceptance of cash so a lot of places are cashless only. Even the old lady who has a tea and snack cart at the train station is cashless here. I'll state some benefits: Public transport becomes much better. You tap your card or phone and never bother with the hassle of a ticket ever again. You probably never realized just how much of a barrier th…

Given Australia took the extraordinary step of violating UN Human Rights codes it agreed to when preventing citizens and in some cases foreign residents from leaving the country during the pandemic I'd say they're already on the way. After all, the action was unprecedented, contravened human rights and aligned their response with North Korea and China, the only other countries who have ever had such restrictions. Thi…

I always love these strong opinions about Australasian responses to Covid, and how they tend to significantly differ from the opinions of the people who live in that country.

Something about it really riled some segments overseas up, to the point they were frothing at the month claiming Australia had concentration camps, and NZ was a socialist hellhole.

You're right about the Australian government's obsession with surveillance though. But then, as a Kiwi, I've always felt that started when John Howard wanted to be best buds with George W Bush, and Australia started mimicking the US.

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