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Abolish the PhD (2016)

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Re: Abolish the PhD (2016)

#181

Post by jiggunjer »

KindAndFriendly wrote: post #37

I thoroughly enjoyed my time as a PhD student. Imho it might be the only time in your career when you are truly, 100% your own boss. You own your PhD thesis. While your professor/advisors give input and feedback you ultimately decide what goes in there and what not. You have the freedom to explore anything you deem as relevant and there are no customers/co-workers/VCs etc who tell you otherwise.

Lucky you. In many places, if the supervisor doesn't like it they won't sign off on the submission. They treat it like a paper, by demanding that it contains positive findings (i.e. p-values < 0.05) and must have wide appeal in the field. So much for freedom.

Re: Abolish the PhD (2016)

#182

Post by YeGoblynQueenne »

selimthegrim wrote: post #165
YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing is, if you don't have top grades or an exceptional background, most universities will expect you to have a Master's, instead. But if you do have top grades, or an exceptional background, then you can probably go straight into a PhD from high school, or anyway many universities will accept you. It matters a lot whom you have impressed with your skills, your knowledge and your dedication, it goes without sayi…

In the US this is not usual. I had one but I was changing fields.

In retrospect, I'm making the mistake of generalising my experience with the UK system. I guess things are different elsewhere.

To clarify, you had "one" of what? :)

Re: Abolish the PhD (2016)

#183

Post by selimthegrim »

YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #182
selimthegrim wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the US this is not usual. I had one but I was changing fields.

In retrospect, I'm making the mistake of generalising my experience with the UK system. I guess things are different elsewhere. To clarify, you had "one" of what? :)

Master’s. More than one PhD would be…interesting (although the only person I ever met who did was from the UK)

Re: Abolish the PhD (2016)

#184

Post by austinjp »

MontyCarloHall wrote: post #55

>After all, having a shitty job is a privilege! The abovelinked article tells it with a straight face: “Those who stick with a career in science do so because, despite the relatively poor pay, long hours and lack of security, it is all we want to do.” This is an inherent, intractable problem with many careers that are also passions. There will always be a contingent of people willing to put in extremely long, brutal…

> so the cycle was complete.

This is the heartbreaking part. It's like the bullied child becoming the bully: it happened to me so it's gonna happen to you.

The status quo continues unchanged, despite strongly negative experiences, because nobody is empowered to make change. Quite the opposite.

Re: Abolish the PhD (2016)

#185

Post by sigmoid10 »

anonimamente wrote: post #154
sigmoid10 wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, while this works great for certain subjects like computer science, there are things you can't learn online. Medicine, chemistry, biology, experimental physics and most of engineering require labs and tools and a level of personal oversight or interaction that's just not accessible to young people otherwise. You might be able to get rid of lecture halls in the long run, but you'll never get rid of labs.

This makes a great case for community-based labs. There have been some startups doing this for mechanical engineering, at least. A big issue is the monopoly over labwork by the university system and then industry. The first requires your money, the second requires that you give money to the first.

The thing is, these things don't generate money. A first year lab course in physics, chemistry or biology will only cost you money. It's all about the students learning and it will be years before they are able to do something that generates money. There's a reason why companies don't train their own chemists out of high school. Universities run these labs anyways and if a single student drops out they don't lose a huge investment. I'm all for more dedicated in-house training and less academic requirements, but the reality is that the economy is not suited to handle that.

Re: Abolish the PhD (2016)

#186

Post by adamsmith143 »

light_hue_1 wrote: post #163
adamsmith143 wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Then you don't know the US system. As evidenced by the fact that you say: I've been in it, stipends in my department were ~$18,000 per year with medical insurance and some funding for conference travel. No Vacation days, no sick days, nothing else. >I'm at one of these places. In terms of benefits, we far outstrip the EU. The flexibility we have to spend money on travel, equipment, perks, is incomparable. Columbia:…

> Columbia: No paid time off, no sick days: https://studentbenefits.provost.columbia.edu/content/compens ... Fun fact, your own page shows that the the minimum at Columbia is higher than the max at University of Amsterdam! The idea that EU PhD students are paid better than US PhD students is just as absurd now, as it was when you stated it first. > No paid time off, no sick days There's a lot of confusion here. Peopl…

You are on drugs.

>Fun fact, your own page shows that the the minimum at Columbia is higher than the max at University of Amsterdam!

NYC is far more expensive than Amsterdam. Salary at UVA is higher than the majority of US stipends. Period. This isn't debatable. It's probably higher than stipends at almost every Public university in the US and many Private ones outside the Ivy+ group.

>Grad students just tell me "Hey, I'll be gone these 3 weeks." And I say "Enjoy". That's it. Same with sick leave.

It's unfortunate that your Stockholm syndrome has led you to beliefs like having guaranteed PTO is not as good as hoping your advisor lets you take a break.

>You have no idea about the cost of housing in UCN vs Amsterdam. Or what cheap means.

Take your pick of sources. You're just pulling numbers out of thin air.

https://www.expatistan.com/cost-of-living/comparison/raleigh...

https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?cou...

>Your own numbers completely refute your story. And even the simplest Google search shows that perks in the US are actually far better than perks in the EU. That vacations are good, conference travel is not "business travel" in the US, that you get paid time off, etc.

Maybe get your eyes checked?

Pretty sure 40,000 is higher than 25,000 but maybe I'm wrong there. Your idea of what constitutes perks is some kind of hellish capitalist nightmare.

Re: Abolish the PhD (2016)

#187

Post by adamsmith143 »

jltsiren wrote: post #180
light_hue_1 wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Conference travel and short-term research visits have nothing to do with vacation. They are just business travel, where you rarely have enough time to do anything interesting. That's the European view for sure. In the US it's perfectly normal for PhD students to take a week off at the conference destination and enjoy. While the university pays for all of the flights, and the stipend paid during the conference is en…

Ok, I missed that. Combining business travel with vacation is better than nothing, but it severely restricts what you can do with your vacation. I did that a couple of times as well, but it was rarely worth the effort. Flights were cheap, and I usually wanted to go somewhere else. Kilimanjaro instead of NYC, Everest Base Camp instead of Istanbul, and so on. I've lived in four countries during my academic career: Finl…

>Today in California, grad students live in poverty. Their standard of living reminds me of undergrads in Finland, except that they can't afford to rent a whole apartment. Only the ones with a decent side gig (such as consulting) can afford something resembling the lifestyle of Finnish grad students 10-15 years ago.

Who needs benefits like affording to live in a home when you can have Conference Travel instead! Woo!

Re: Abolish the PhD (2016)

#188

Post by adamsmith143 »

selimthegrim wrote: post #166
light_hue_1 wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> PhD students in the EU make less than students in the US! And virtually all of them in the US get full benefits. > This is completely false. Then you don't know the US system. As evidenced by the fact that you say: > With +16% in bonuses, paid vacations, paid sick days, etc. With bonus the salary is 32364-40600 Which is more than 90% of US stipends. Every PhD student at every university I've ever seen has paid vac…

>Every PhD student at every university I've ever seen has paid vacation, paid sick days, etc I’ve been both at a UC and a private Southern university and I’ve never seen this.

Likewise, because they are pretty much non-existant in the US, poster is way out of line.

Re: Abolish the PhD (2016)

#189

Post by bunbunbun »

Fomite wrote: post #170
bunbunbun wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, it is supposed to be that in theory. But in practice, I had to be trained through multiple research positions doing work for other people, none of whom had managerial experience or training. It was very chaotic and I rarely had time to work on my own research until dissertation.

A PhD should be, at least in theory. Whether it is or not is a question - and "until dissertation" is doing a lot of work in that sentence. Importantly, a staff scientist position will never be . If you cannot tie your project to one of my grants, you are losing me money. For a student, that might be acceptable. For a staff scientist, it's not.

That’s the way it works and will probably always work. Profit, prestige, and power are the driving factors, even for the most equity-minded individuals.

Re: Abolish the PhD (2016)

#190

Post by eli_gottlieb »

light_hue_1 wrote: post #163
adamsmith143 wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Then you don't know the US system. As evidenced by the fact that you say: I've been in it, stipends in my department were ~$18,000 per year with medical insurance and some funding for conference travel. No Vacation days, no sick days, nothing else. >I'm at one of these places. In terms of benefits, we far outstrip the EU. The flexibility we have to spend money on travel, equipment, perks, is incomparable. Columbia:…

> Columbia: No paid time off, no sick days: https://studentbenefits.provost.columbia.edu/content/compens ... Fun fact, your own page shows that the the minimum at Columbia is higher than the max at University of Amsterdam! The idea that EU PhD students are paid better than US PhD students is just as absurd now, as it was when you stated it first. > No paid time off, no sick days There's a lot of confusion here. Peopl…

>But again. You need to drop your narrow EU bureaucratic view of things. I have never applied to vacation as a grad student. Never, among my 50+ grad students so far as a single grad student applied for vacation. Not one of them has ever applied for vacation time. Grad students just tell me "Hey, I'll be gone these 3 weeks." And I say "Enjoy". That's it. Same with sick leave.

Yeah sure, as a boss, you're going to keep insisting you're One of the Good Ones whenever someone sticks up for your workers to have formal rights.

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