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Botspam apocalypse

memex.marginalia.nu

31–40 of 358 posts

Re: Botspam apocalypse

#31
It's not that bad.

First, of course, you have cloudflare and recaptcha, which are free and very efficient, as the author say.

But even if you don't want to use them (some of my services don't), most bots are very dumb:

- require JS, and you lose half of the web ones

- silly tricks like hidden input fields in forms that worked in 2000 still work in 2022. Use a bunch of them, and you can yet again halve the bot traffic.

- many URL should have impossible to guess paths. E.G: just changing the /admin/ url to a uuid in django or the /wp-admin/ in wordpress, you save so many requests.

- bots are usually not tailored to your site, meaning if you require JS, you can actually embed anti-bot measure in the client code and they will work. E.G: exponential backoff + some heavy calculations if too many fast consecutive ajax requests.

- fail2ban + a few iptables rules (mitigate syn flood, etc) will help

- varnish + redis gets you very far to shave excess dummy traffic

It's not great, but it's not an apocalypse.

Unless you are under targeted attack.

Then it sucks and you die.

Re: Botspam apocalypse

#32
post #2

> They're a major part in killing off web forums, and a significant wet blanket on any sort of fun internet creativity or experimentation. > The only ones that can survive the robot apocalypse is large web services. Your reddits, and facebooks, and twitters, and SaaS-comment fields, and discords. They have the economies of scale to develop viable countermeasures, to hire teams of people to work on the problem full ti…

>The solution is real simple: it costs 10 bux to register an account, if you're a nuisance your account is banned and you pay 10bux to get back on.

Many years ago there was a public server called SDF (Super Dimensional Fortress). It was a BSD system and anyone could get a user account for $1. The theory was even the least of us, a kid scrounging for money on the street, could come up with a dollar (and presumably the postage to mail it). To a certain person, access to this kind of server was invaluable - the only situation you could hope to get close to this kind of system. As time went on, the number of people interested in this was dwindling.

Jumping through hoops is a useful gateway, but if your hoops are too complex or arduous, you miss out on people who you genuinely want to include in your community.

Re: Botspam apocalypse

#33
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My laptop is lying all the time. I change my UA, preferred language, my ip, mac and so on, because of tracking, terrible dev assumptions and personal preferences. Yet, I'm a very good web citizen. Because of this, I often have to solve the same captcha many times before it thinks I'm human.

I don't doubt it. Given how rare people like you are, I'm sure a good citizen like you would also be perfectly fine sending an email to the service asking to be whitelisted, or having a second browser that isn't your daily driver for situations like this that doesn't try to obfuscate its identity by behaving like a bot.

The first solution isn't practical (so many services to manually find a mail to send a message to, then interact with a human that might not even exist), and if you do, they don't whitelist you. I tried. Either they don't answer, or have "no way to have a specific whitelist for a single user in our system".

So the second browser is the solution. But then the site will do all the bad things that I wanted it not to do in the first place. Like serving terrible French results instead of good English ones, or assuming Firefox doesn't work based on UA while their site work fine with it. And of course track me to death, sell my data, and so on.

The only solution that works is to chose services you pay money for: they have your card, so they know you are not a bot. For years now, I have been suspicious of anything free. But it doesn't solve the tracking problem.

Re: Botspam apocalypse

#34
post #6

> The other alternatives all suck to the extent of my knowledge, they're either prohibitively convoluted, or web3 cryptocurrency micro-transaction nonsense that while sure it would work, also monetizes every single interaction in a way that is more dystopian than the actual skull-crushing robot apocalypse. In the interest of practicality: There's a way to go the web3 route without being laden with transactions: - Min…

That seems "prohibitively convoluted" to me, if nothing else.

Because you don't have experience with it. There's nothing complicated about SIWE, minting an NFT and checking its validity, certainly not to describe it "prohibitively convoluted" aside from being scared of web3 keywords. Come on now.

Not commenting on op's solution's validity or effectiveness, just replying to your comment.

Re: Botspam apocalypse

#35

I experienced this firsthand with government immigration websites. The thing is there are only so many time slots and and people are forsed to use a certain web site to apply, so everyone is hunting for available time and generally none are available. So, some creative people set up bots which check periodically for them. They are paid services which will do that for you. Now we have bots hammering gatekeeper's websi…

> I don't think there is a good solution besides a deep anti-bot expertise whithin the primary website development team

But there is a solution: the website team should get their act together and remove the "first come first served" aspect altogether.

Do you, citizen, want to register? Cool - leave your e-mail and we'll call you. Is the service optional? Then we'll pick at random from the pool of applicants and e-mail them. Is the service mandatory? Then sign up and we'll call you once you reach the top of the queue. Add a quick ID/credit card/whatever check on top (like good concert venues do), regular e-mail updates to let people know they haven't been forgotten, and you're done.

Any second year CS student could write such a system. The difficult part is accepting that the current approach doesn't work and looking for alternatives.

Re: Botspam apocalypse

#36
For small sites, I would just use a simple firewall:

1. whitelist the finite IP ranges for the regional ISPs/country where you do business

2. blacklist the proxy and tor exit nodes

3. blacklist the list of published compromised servers

4. add spamhaus blacklists

5. add fail2ban rules to trip on common server security scans, and unused common service ports

6. publicly reply to those having access issues, and imply they have bad neighbors.

This will often take care of 99% of the nuisance traffic, but I still recommend live monitoring traffic regularly. ;)

Re: Botspam apocalypse

#37

It's not that bad. First, of course, you have cloudflare and recaptcha, which are free and very efficient, as the author say. But even if you don't want to use them (some of my services don't), most bots are very dumb: - require JS, and you lose half of the web ones - silly tricks like hidden input fields in forms that worked in 2000 still work in 2022. Use a bunch of them, and you can yet again halve the bot traffic…

No, then you hide behind CloudFlare, because only the CSPs and network operators have the infrastructure to deal with volumetric attacks.

Re: Botspam apocalypse

#38
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't doubt it. Given how rare people like you are, I'm sure a good citizen like you would also be perfectly fine sending an email to the service asking to be whitelisted, or having a second browser that isn't your daily driver for situations like this that doesn't try to obfuscate its identity by behaving like a bot.

The first solution isn't practical (so many services to manually find a mail to send a message to, then interact with a human that might not even exist), and if you do, they don't whitelist you. I tried. Either they don't answer, or have "no way to have a specific whitelist for a single user in our system". So the second browser is the solution. But then the site will do all the bad things that I wanted it not to do…

Yes I understand the desire for capitalism rather than surveillance capitalism, but that's a derailment. The OP appears to be someone who just wants to build something cool and share it with other human beings. In that case, it's really helpful to be able to have a free practical way to address abuse. Would you really tell someone like the OP to stop expressing themself and shut down their service and put a paid one in its place? How can you charge for search when Google gives it away for free?

Re: Botspam apocalypse

#39
What's hard to do now is host a lightly used but broadly interesting service that doesn't require a login.

Although, surprisingly, I host such a service, and while it gets a constant stream of random hits, they're a minor nuisance. Probably because it's just the back end for a web page, and nobody bothers to target it specifically. Random web browsing won't find it, and the API will just return an error if called incorrectly. Even if it is called correctly, it has fair queuing on the service, so hammering on it from a small number of IP addresses won't do much.

That did happen once. Someone from a university was making requests at a high rate and not even reading the results. I noticed after a month, and wrote to their department chair, which stopped the problem.

Re: Botspam apocalypse

#40
post #2

> They're a major part in killing off web forums, and a significant wet blanket on any sort of fun internet creativity or experimentation. > The only ones that can survive the robot apocalypse is large web services. Your reddits, and facebooks, and twitters, and SaaS-comment fields, and discords. They have the economies of scale to develop viable countermeasures, to hire teams of people to work on the problem full ti…

There are (at least) 2 kinds of spam - "technical" spam such as bots hammering the web service with requests and consuming resources, and the commonly-accepted definition of spam where bots post promotional or other obnoxious content. I feel like the article here talks more about the first kind. I do agree with your solution for the second kind of spam though.

> bots hammering the web service with requests and consuming resources

I've never seen this referred as "spam". Denial of service, botting, scraping, sure, but does anyone call that spam?

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