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Abolish the PhD (2016)

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Re: Abolish the PhD (2016)

#91

Post by psi75 »

walnutclosefarm wrote: post #89

It seems the author is taking the experience of Science PhDs, and realistically, a specific kind of Science Phd, and tarring the entire notion of a doctoral degree on that basis. US Universities grant PhDs in a wide range of academic disciplines across the Humanities and Sciences, and quite a few professions (Engineering and Education come immediately to mind). My children both have PhDs and academic careers (one as…

As someone in his late 30s who's doing a Master's degree and likely to go on for a PhD, I agree. It should be reformed, not abolished.

What should be abolished are 97 percent of postdoc positions. Postdocs used to be a rare, prestigious opportunity to do something different one might not want to do for one's whole life, like work for IAS in Princeton or for the government doing cryptography. What they became is something else entirely: another stupid rung on the ladder, an excuse to dangle the carrot of tenure (which isn't "lifetime job security" as academic detractors like to claim, but merely the presence of due process, as opposed to arbitrary whim, around personnel decisions) for longer.

Re: Abolish the PhD (2016)

#92

Post by linuxftw »

fruffy wrote: post #53
Fomite wrote: post #6

"Problem is, “graduate students” are not students. They are workers." Graduate students are both . My students benefit heavily from me not necessarily treating them to the same standards as I would treat a full time research employee. And while they are the primary workhorses of research, there are large swathes of their graduate student careers where they are not particularly (or often negatively) productive. I will…

As a current CS PhD in the US I find this sentiment aggravating. I am not a mere "student", I am a full-time employee. I do not take classes and I am not interested in taking classes. I would either like to teach or work on my research in a collaborative environment with other like-minded peers. Many PhDs are in their late 20s/early 30s, coming from all swaths of life. They are not children. However, in the American…

> Unfortunately, I think this is a systemic issue that is not easy to solve.

It's incredibly easy to solve. Quit your PhD and encourage others to do so as well. You're being used.

Re: Abolish the PhD (2016)

#93

Post by jjgreen »

urthor wrote: post #73
_8j50 wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't believe I didn't know this, I thought yoy had to have masters before phd.

Only in Germany and a group of similarly minded countries. The Anglo-Saxon tradition is one of disorganised irreverence.

Er, in the UK a masters is not required, and that's sort-of Anglo-Saxon

Re: Abolish the PhD (2016)

#94

Post by psi75 »

chrisseaton wrote: post #71
fruffy wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a current CS PhD in the US I find this sentiment aggravating. I am not a mere "student", I am a full-time employee. I do not take classes and I am not interested in taking classes. I would either like to teach or work on my research in a collaborative environment with other like-minded peers. Many PhDs are in their late 20s/early 30s, coming from all swaths of life. They are not children. However, in the American…

> I am not a mere "student", I am a full-time employee. Isn't 'student' the preferable option here? I was proud to be a student when I was doing my PhD. (I said 'doctoral student' when I wanted to be more clear.) Why do you want to work for someone else, on their hours, answerable to them, doing their research and teaching their classes, instead of working on your own research? I can't understand why you'd want to be…

The problem, I think, stems from the fact that a doctoral advisor, because he influences your reputation in all of academia rather than just one company, is even more of a career SPOF than a corporate manager.

The good news is that your advisor is safe (tenured, or at least likely to make tenure) in most circumstances, so he's not going to fuck you over unless he's a truly terrible person, and 90 percent of people aren't, as opposed to the corporate world where the pressure of constantly watching your back turns that middle 80% into bad people as well. The bad news is that he does have this extortive power over you, if he wants to use it.

There's also a conflict of interest when it comes to delayed graduations. If the advisor's getting cheap or free grunt work, and delaying your graduation for another year can get him more of said work, then he has an incentive to do so. Of course, this can't be continued forever, because eventually he'll get a reputation for his students taking too long and not doing well... but in the short term, it is an option for him, and it is sometimes exercised.

Re: Abolish the PhD (2016)

#95

Post by watwut »

Fomite wrote: post #6

"Problem is, “graduate students” are not students. They are workers." Graduate students are both . My students benefit heavily from me not necessarily treating them to the same standards as I would treat a full time research employee. And while they are the primary workhorses of research, there are large swathes of their graduate student careers where they are not particularly (or often negatively) productive. I will…

> My students benefit heavily from me not necessarily treating them to the same standards as I would treat a full time research employee.

Aren't PhD students working long hours already? I really dont see where is the supposed additional slack they are having.

> I will take a chance on a promising student straight out of undergrad who seems like they might be interesting, knowing that it will take them some time to get their feet under them. That would be very different if they were employees.

That is called junior.

Re: Abolish the PhD (2016)

#96

Post by psi75 »

fruffy wrote: post #87
chrisseaton wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am not a mere "student", I am a full-time employee. Isn't 'student' the preferable option here? I was proud to be a student when I was doing my PhD. (I said 'doctoral student' when I wanted to be more clear.) Why do you want to work for someone else, on their hours, answerable to them, doing their research and teaching their classes, instead of working on your own research? I can't understand why you'd want to be…

>Why do you want to work for someone else, on their hours, answerable to them, doing their research and teaching their classes Well, you are still forced to do all that. After all, you often depend on your advisor's funding or expectations. They can make or break you. You get "freedom", but with that freedom 1) you do not have an actual contract listing your hours or any sort of vacation policy. 2) vacations in gener…

5) you are expected to find other work over three months in the summer (but at the same time must continue your research, there is that deadline we REALLY need to hit, do NOT waste your time trying to earn money).

Yeah, this is very true, and it's degenerate, because research is a 12-month job and deserves a 12-month salary.

It seems to me that academia takes advantage of extremely smart people (and delusional middling-smart people) because it knows they have nowhere else to go. If you're a legit 140+, you're at the level where corporate America becomes to become a non-option because you're just too different, if not necessarily from the other people, from what you are expected to be as a subordinate.

Re: Abolish the PhD (2016)

#97

Post by empyrrhicist »

fruffy wrote: post #87
chrisseaton wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am not a mere "student", I am a full-time employee. Isn't 'student' the preferable option here? I was proud to be a student when I was doing my PhD. (I said 'doctoral student' when I wanted to be more clear.) Why do you want to work for someone else, on their hours, answerable to them, doing their research and teaching their classes, instead of working on your own research? I can't understand why you'd want to be…

>Why do you want to work for someone else, on their hours, answerable to them, doing their research and teaching their classes Well, you are still forced to do all that. After all, you often depend on your advisor's funding or expectations. They can make or break you. You get "freedom", but with that freedom 1) you do not have an actual contract listing your hours or any sort of vacation policy. 2) vacations in gener…

Do you not have a graduate student union?

Re: Abolish the PhD (2016)

#98

Post by watwut »

chrisseaton wrote: post #77
bunbunbun wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can say from experience that employees get some protections that students don’t. Particularly when it comes to: - working hours (often paid for 20 but working close to 40) - paid time off (I have worked through a lot of ‘vacations’ and ‘holidays’) - health insurance (for my whole family, not just me) - behavioral requirements for managers (I have stories) - retirement funding - credit for work products (imagine bei…

But you're opting into them having more control over you. If you're an employee they can set your hours. They can't as a student. You're opting into a HR-managed vacation system instead of managing your own time. Health insurance, behaviours, retirement, etc I guess so.

> If you're an employee they can set your hours. They can't as a student. You're opting into a HR-managed vacation system instead of managing your own time.

The PhD students I knew did not managed own time. They worked when mandated by supervisor, they worked long hours and vacation meant still working. And they could not go to vacations whenever either.

Re: Abolish the PhD (2016)

#99

Post by UncleMeat »

chrisseaton wrote: post #71
fruffy wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a current CS PhD in the US I find this sentiment aggravating. I am not a mere "student", I am a full-time employee. I do not take classes and I am not interested in taking classes. I would either like to teach or work on my research in a collaborative environment with other like-minded peers. Many PhDs are in their late 20s/early 30s, coming from all swaths of life. They are not children. However, in the American…

> I am not a mere "student", I am a full-time employee. Isn't 'student' the preferable option here? I was proud to be a student when I was doing my PhD. (I said 'doctoral student' when I wanted to be more clear.) Why do you want to work for someone else, on their hours, answerable to them, doing their research and teaching their classes, instead of working on your own research? I can't understand why you'd want to be…

Being an employee makes it easier to demand fair treatment. As a "student" people can say "of course your pay and benefits are low and hours are terrible, you are a student and are paid in coaching." If you are instead understood to be an employee then suddenly the comparison between working at Target and working as a graduate student becomes harder to ignore and the abusive practices become more clear.

There are downsides, like it being important to be able to fire low performers in employee/employer relationships. But thinking of graduate students as skilled knowledge workers makes it easier to agitate for better conditions.

Re: Abolish the PhD (2016)

#100

Post by UncleMeat »

krastanov wrote: post #84
shioyama wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This a thousand times. > And while they are the primary workhorses of research, there are large swathes of their graduate student careers where they are not particularly (or often negatively) productive. Um, hello. This happens in industry as well. It's called training, learning, whatever. It's an investment on the part of the company in the future of its workforce. Why should academia expect to only pay employees wh…

You have a point, but graduate students are actually paid a salary, unlike what you suggested.

Rarely is this salary guaranteed. It often requires TAing to supplement research funding and graduate students are often required to be deeply involved (or even solely responsible) for sourcing their own research funding. Stipends are also often poverty wages or even lower when you consider that stipends are usually only for 3/4 of the year and you are usually expected to continue research during the summer.

I know some folks who did PhDs in non-engineering fields at state universities who had to TA every single semester, often TAing multiple classes, just to earn ~$20,000 per year.

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