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Abolish the PhD (2016)

blog.devicerandom.org

81–90 of 197 posts

Re: Abolish the PhD (2016)

#81
post #6

"Problem is, “graduate students” are not students. They are workers." Graduate students are both . My students benefit heavily from me not necessarily treating them to the same standards as I would treat a full time research employee. And while they are the primary workhorses of research, there are large swathes of their graduate student careers where they are not particularly (or often negatively) productive. I will…

Agreed 100%. As a grad student, I made so many mistakes, destroying expensive equipment in the process. I took a 3 year leave of absence to join a startup and was taken back without question when it failed. I went on intellectual flights of fancy on a whim when I found things interesting without telling my PI, wasting precious time and missing deadlines. I took classes and then dropped them when I got too busy, wasting my PI’s grant money. I was given tasks to accomplish and failed them miserably.

He tolerated all of it because I was a student and the expectations were set accordingly.

As a professor today, I take the same attitude toward my students, and I think it’s for their benefit. If they want to be treated as employees, the bar for admission becomes a lot higher, and the expectations do as well. The capacity for mistakes goes down, and the latitude and freedom afforded to them to explore their interests goes away entirely.

Employees do what they’re told when they’re told it, and they are paid accordingly. I’m not sure that’s what many PhD students actually want when they say they want to be treated as employees.

Re: Abolish the PhD (2016)

#82

I thoroughly enjoyed my time as a PhD student. Imho it might be the only time in your career when you are truly, 100% your own boss. You own your PhD thesis. While your professor/advisors give input and feedback you ultimately decide what goes in there and what not. You have the freedom to explore anything you deem as relevant and there are no customers/co-workers/VCs etc who tell you otherwise.

You are your boss in these regards, but you are very much not your boss when it comes to a world of other issues. While I enjoyed the freedom, I experienced all sorts of abuses from higher-ups and my career was harmed by how lopsided the hierarchy is.

Re: Abolish the PhD (2016)

#83
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they work for themselves They work for professors who sometimes care that they eventually get a PhD and sometimes don’t care if they live or die. I love hard work, but not if it’s paired with a toxic environment where I’m going to be working like a slave for a decade and maybe will never achieve anything close to the impact I thought I’d have. > goal? Not sure, but if not what is the goal? To be in a research lab f…

> They work for professors I think we need to break this mindset. It’s your research. Not your professors. By the end, your professor probably doesn’t really understand it anymore because you’ve pushed the envelope beyond them. > but if not what is the goal? Go into industry.

And can you publish your ground breaking research without being authorised by your boss? Can you even continue to do it meaningfully if he or she refuses? If not, then you are definitely not working for yourself.

Re: Abolish the PhD (2016)

#84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In industry we just call those junior and senior employees.

This a thousand times. > And while they are the primary workhorses of research, there are large swathes of their graduate student careers where they are not particularly (or often negatively) productive. Um, hello. This happens in industry as well. It's called training, learning, whatever. It's an investment on the part of the company in the future of its workforce. Why should academia expect to only pay employees wh…

You have a point, but graduate students are actually paid a salary, unlike what you suggested.

Re: Abolish the PhD (2016)

#85
I agree with most points in the article, with the notable exception of the Thesis. Writing individual papers vs planning and executing 3 or more years of research into a successful project with a cohesive narrative are entirely different tasks. Related: https://academia.stackexchange.com/a/124705/58645

Also, the opening quote is unfortunate, in that it probably contradicts the article and makes many false assertions (while Dyson Freeman might be forgiven for thinking at the ripe age of 90 that a PhD is a harmful choice for "a woman who pretends to do research she is not well-suited for, only to get a paper that means nothing", I don't think it's something that can be used as a serious argument by people in academia today...).

Finally, the whole article is extremely reductive, focusing only on negative aspects, without touching any positives; i.e. it's effectively a 'rant' rather than a nuanced analysis.

However, the biggest beef I have with it is the whole "therefore the phd needs to be abolished" conclusion, which is a complete non-sequitur, and effectively the "Politician's fallacy" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politician%27s_syllogism). No, PhDs do not need to be abolished. They do need to be upgraded to come with some protections, but that's a very different argument. At the moment, there are very few protections, and most if not all career training beyond the immediate scope of the relevant research simply comes down to supervisors' good will. However, talking about abolishing the institution because it's "broken" is no less a serious proposition than overthrowing governments and leaving countries into chaos because governments are "broken".

Re: Abolish the PhD (2016)

#86

Graduates are underpaid by society. The reason is either there are too many graduates, or graduate work is futile and not needed

Do you also believe we have too many teachers, or that they are not needed by society? Or, maybe, there are other factors that determine wage?

Re: Abolish the PhD (2016)

#87
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a current CS PhD in the US I find this sentiment aggravating. I am not a mere "student", I am a full-time employee. I do not take classes and I am not interested in taking classes. I would either like to teach or work on my research in a collaborative environment with other like-minded peers. Many PhDs are in their late 20s/early 30s, coming from all swaths of life. They are not children. However, in the American…

> I am not a mere "student", I am a full-time employee. Isn't 'student' the preferable option here? I was proud to be a student when I was doing my PhD. (I said 'doctoral student' when I wanted to be more clear.) Why do you want to work for someone else, on their hours, answerable to them, doing their research and teaching their classes, instead of working on your own research? I can't understand why you'd want to be…

>Why do you want to work for someone else, on their hours, answerable to them, doing their research and teaching their classes

Well, you are still forced to do all that. After all, you often depend on your advisor's funding or expectations. They can make or break you. You get "freedom", but with that freedom

1) you do not have an actual contract listing your hours or any sort of vacation policy.

2) vacations in general are not a thing (it is really important to submit that paper over Christmas).

3) health benefits and family support depend on the whims of the department, any sort of pension plan is unheard of.

4) you sometimes get paid, sometimes not (depending on whether some administrative clerk "forgets" to put you on payroll this term).

5) you are expected to find other work over three months in the summer (but at the same time must continue your research, there is that deadline we REALLY need to hit, do NOT waste your time trying to earn money).

6) as F1 student you are not permitted to find other means of income unless approved by your advisor or department. If they approve, they have to approve every single term (good luck with that).

7) you can try to pursue your own research but then you should also expect to be isolated, receiving no support or feedback from either your lab, peers, or advisor. This is one of the most common stories. Usually, these students just wither away or drop out.

These are not isolated issues, mind you. This is pretty common across the board from what I have seen. And all of these issues are tolerable, if you were at least paid a living wage. But commonly the pay you get barely covers the rent in the city you live in.

Thankfully, I am in a better position and I have an accommodating advisor, but I still think this is a depressing state of affairs.

Re: Abolish the PhD (2016)

#88
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They work for professors I think we need to break this mindset. It’s your research. Not your professors. By the end, your professor probably doesn’t really understand it anymore because you’ve pushed the envelope beyond them. > but if not what is the goal? Go into industry.

And can you publish your ground breaking research without being authorised by your boss? Can you even continue to do it meaningfully if he or she refuses? If not, then you are definitely not working for yourself.

> And can you publish your ground breaking research without being authorised by your boss?

As a student. Yes? How would they stop you?

Re: Abolish the PhD (2016)

#89
It seems the author is taking the experience of Science PhDs, and realistically, a specific kind of Science Phd, and tarring the entire notion of a doctoral degree on that basis. US Universities grant PhDs in a wide range of academic disciplines across the Humanities and Sciences, and quite a few professions (Engineering and Education come immediately to mind). My children both have PhDs and academic careers (one as faculty in top-ranked University, and one as a research associate in the Health Sciences, an neither's experience is particularly close to that the author outlines. The author's one-size fits all criticism really doesn't fit all.

That's not to say there aren't abuses and inefficiencies in Science doctoral programs. Just that "Abolish the PhD" is the wrong rallying cry.

Re: Abolish the PhD (2016)

#90
post #6

"Problem is, “graduate students” are not students. They are workers." Graduate students are both . My students benefit heavily from me not necessarily treating them to the same standards as I would treat a full time research employee. And while they are the primary workhorses of research, there are large swathes of their graduate student careers where they are not particularly (or often negatively) productive. I will…

In industry we just call those junior and senior employees.

Is it expected that a junior employee will remain as such for 5-10 years? Of course not. Junior employees are promoted and given more responsibility, or they are fired quickly if they are not performing well.

Do companies let junior employees work on whatever they want? Manage their time as they want? No, one of the key indicators of an employee status is that their time and work is managed by their employer.

If a junior employee works on some passion project related to their work but on their own time, do they own the intellectual property of that work? Probably not; many employers demand that all IP created by the junior employee belongs to the company.

I think this is a case of “be careful what you wish for”.

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