Think different about Jobs • Hacker News Board

Re: Think different about Jobs

#181

Post by gbog » Mon, Nov 14, 2011, 12:58 AM UTC

garyrichardson wrote: post #146

kiba wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly, I don't really care about how good Apple products are or how innovative are. I don't use them, I don't hate them either. It's just not for me. My beef with apple is how they felt entitled to control the devices that apple made but consumers own, making them unhackable. When I buy something, I own it, period. I should be able to reverse engineer anything on the market, because I obtained the copy. I don't gi…

10-15 years ago, a true monopoly was in control of PCs: Microsoft. I couldn't use Linux or Mac at work. I had to use Windows to share documents because I couldn't get onto the network shares to access them. I couldn't access the internet because my ISP required Windows only software to get online. Microsoft had 'won' and we all lost our freedom to use software that doesn't suck. Luckily, this was a temporary state. I…

Well, my Android phone and most of the ones I see around are not feature phones, and are not controlled by carriers. Maybe we live in different worlds?

Re: Think different about Jobs

#182

Post by gbog » Mon, Nov 14, 2011, 1:03 AM UTC

billpatrianakos wrote: post #164

ahoyhere wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for taking the time to write all this up. I haven't delved into my copy yet, but it's great that now I can do so knowing that I shouldn't trust Isaacson's editorializing. I joined Hacker News a long time ago. I think it's shameful that people here now don't know any better -- or don't have the brains -- than to say that it doesn't matter if the book is full of bald-faced lies, because Steve Jobs was not a nice…

I've only been here for about a year but I agree. The iPhone openness arguments and "Jobs was a doodoo head" comments don't belong here. I thought we were all better than that. (I totally just fueled the flames of one of those bad comments though, which I'm embarrassed for).

Sorry but the openess of a widely used tool as the iPhone is of paramount importance to hackers, by definition.

Re: Think different about Jobs

#183

Post by skore » Mon, Nov 14, 2011, 1:08 AM UTC

ceejayoz wrote: post #49

spacefungus wrote: post #16

I'm a fan of Steve Jobs for his vision and ability to see things we all blatantly are unaware of. He changed technology, but also advertising, movies, music, etc. But I'm glad to see someone holding him accountable for his life and the consequences of his actions. The iPhone rocks, but the Foxconn factory it was made in is so fucking hard to work in that they have suicide nets on the roof; almost a dozen have killed…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn 920,000+ employees, "almost a dozen" suicides http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_ra... , China 13.85 per 100,000. Foxconn should have 127.42 suicides per year. "Almost a dozen" means they have one tenth the per-capita suicide rate of the rest of the country.

Different dataset - For starters: "all of china" includes a lot of unemployed people. "All of Foxconn" includes only employed people.

Re: Think different about Jobs

#184

Post by gbog » Mon, Nov 14, 2011, 1:10 AM UTC

nirvana wrote: post #64

sipefree wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There would have been no Apple for Woz to kick anyone out of if it wasn't for Jobs. They needed each other, that's why they split the company 50/50.

In fact, that they split the company 50/50 when Jobs could have likely easily talked his way into a 70/30 split, is proof positive that the stories about Jobs being an asshole are bullshit. When you have high standards, a lot of people are going to call you an asshole. When you produce fantastic products that are hugely successful, you'll get scores and scores of stories on hacker news from jealous people who want to…

Well, if the Park at handicapped place thing is true, then asshole seem to be adequate, even if SJ invented a way to bring water to Sahara.

Re: Think different about Jobs

#185

Post by away » Mon, Nov 14, 2011, 1:14 AM UTC

kiba wrote: post #81

nirvana wrote: post #63

Isaacson's book is a hatchet job, with many errors, and some downright dishonest statements. It is a shame that Jobs cooperated with that hack. In numerous passages, Isaacson will quote Jobs saying something perfectly truthful[1], and then follow it up with a claim that Jobs is lying. Most of the time, he doesn't provide any evidence that Jobs is lying, just the assertion, because, as Isaacson is careful to tell us m…

Honestly, I don't really care about how good Apple products are or how innovative are. I don't use them, I don't hate them either. It's just not for me. My beef with apple is how they felt entitled to control the devices that apple made but consumers own, making them unhackable. When I buy something, I own it, period. I should be able to reverse engineer anything on the market, because I obtained the copy. I don't gi…

Most people in this world are not hackers. Apple is not going to make a product just to cater to a tiny % of the people. Also there are Apps.

No one is forcing anyone to buy any phone. If you want to invent your own smart phone then you are free to do so.

Re: Think different about Jobs

#186

Post by loso » Mon, Nov 14, 2011, 1:22 AM UTC

brisance wrote: post #112

loso wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you seen the perception of Jordan lately? I was and probably still am one of the biggest Jordan fans ever but he's a dick and as a fan I have to admit it. His former teammates do not have many nice things to say about him and the people he played against even less so. Right now there are a bunch of young NBA players, who grew up watching Jordan's accomplishments, considering boycotting Jordan brand sneakers beca…

There is no way to please everyone all the time. I saw the HoF induction speech. Did it come across as self-centered... yes, I thought it did. But that's his privilege, he earned it. About a person's qualities as a human being: I feel there isn't much need to pass judgment on others, whether they are celebrities or not. Each of us are also humans and are also prone to our own lapses of judgment, integrity etc. That's…

I agree with you about Jobs and even about Jordan. They most likely have probably made the world better than when they came in. But there has been a sacrifice made in that achievement. On a personal level. But to be considered great that is always going to be the case.

And I also add Bill Gates to that list as well. His enemies were more competitors than personal but he has gathered a lot of bad will over the years. But he was able to place computers in a lot of homes at a reasonable price. He sacrificed a lot of good will in the tech community to accomplish that.

Re: Think different about Jobs

#187

Post by matwood » Mon, Nov 14, 2011, 3:08 AM UTC

gbog wrote: post #180

matwood wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Somebody can alway polish their own android version and make it like the magical apple products that I hear so much about. I hate the 'apple makes most of the profits' line that gets talked about all the time (even though true), but if what you say is really so easy then why hasn't someone or some company done it? Things is, it's not easy. This is where techies (myself included) often miss there is something beyond a…

Art? You mean to compare iPhones and other manufactured consumer gadgets with art masterpieces like Mona Lisa or Mahler's 5th?

Put words in my mouth? Nowhere did I say an iPhone was a masterpiece nor did I say it was comparable to the Mona Lisa (well maybe, its mystique is better than the actual piece) or Mahlers 5th.

But yes, manufactured consumer gadgets can have artistic qualities.

Re: Think different about Jobs

#188

Post by dman » Mon, Nov 14, 2011, 3:11 AM UTC

ahoyhere wrote: post #125

unalone wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But, if Apple win the mobile war, we are screwed as far as freedom and ownership is concerned. Sentences like this are why the phrase "mobile war" should be taken away from all of us and placed on the high shelf next to the cookie jar. "Mobile war" is an exciting idea – much more exciting than "competitive mobile marketplace" – and so we like to think in these terms despite how misleading they are. There is no mobi…

> You have your Android phone! Why must you wish misfortune on my choice? Because people like this are hypocrites… they want to take your choice away, and scream and fight and claw madly if they don't get their choice. Mentally, these people are still children. They look at everything (e.g. alll of business) as it if it is a zero-sum game. They take everything personally. It's hard not to be offended when you think a…

Its childish to label other people as children unless they happen to be children.

Re: Think different about Jobs

#189

Post by dman » Mon, Nov 14, 2011, 3:14 AM UTC

philwelch wrote: post #98

kiba wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly, I don't really care about how good Apple products are or how innovative are. I don't use them, I don't hate them either. It's just not for me. My beef with apple is how they felt entitled to control the devices that apple made but consumers own, making them unhackable. When I buy something, I own it, period. I should be able to reverse engineer anything on the market, because I obtained the copy. I don't gi…

It's interesting how people attack Apple by championing the freedom to make things, and then continue to attack Apple for the way they make things. Speaking very broadly, Apple aren't hackers, they're artists. Michaelangelo's intention wasn't to let the Pope knock himself out altering the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel. And if you really do want to alter an iPhone--well, you can. It's not designed to be easy, but ther…

Heres to hoping someday we will see mobile phones that are as open as PCs. I await the day when I can legally run emacs and python on my cell phone.

Re: Think different about Jobs

#190

Post by ceejayoz » Mon, Nov 14, 2011, 3:15 AM UTC

skore wrote: post #183

ceejayoz wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn 920,000+ employees, "almost a dozen" suicides http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_ra... , China 13.85 per 100,000. Foxconn should have 127.42 suicides per year. "Almost a dozen" means they have one tenth the per-capita suicide rate of the rest of the country.

Different dataset - For starters: "all of china" includes a lot of unemployed people. "All of Foxconn" includes only employed people.

Unemployment rate in Chinese urban areas: 14% http://www.economics.ox.ac.uk/members/albert.park/papers/une...

Study indicating double suicide risk in unemployed: http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract;jsessio...

Even if you posit that 100% of China is unemployed and thus causes double the normal suicide rate, you'd still expect ~60 suicides at Foxconn in an average year.