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I still love PHP and JavaScript

the.scapegoat.dev

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Re: I still love PHP and JavaScript

#11

Post by muglug »

svnpenn wrote: post #3

I love PHP, it fits that niche of having a fast startup like Perl, while having a big standard library like Python. However after using Go and Rust, I don't like the idea of the package manager being this separate thing (Composer). I think the package manager should be part of the PHP distribution itself, not some other thing that people have to find and install separately. I am fine if people want to implement other…

Composer is the de facto package manager for PHP. I’ve never seen anyone try to compete with it.

I also don’t believe a bundled package manager is necessary — NPM isn’t bundled with JavaScript, and it seems to be doing ok.

Re: I still love PHP and JavaScript

#12

Post by svnpenn »

CharlesW wrote: post #7
svnpenn wrote: post #3

I love PHP, it fits that niche of having a fast startup like Perl, while having a big standard library like Python. However after using Go and Rust, I don't like the idea of the package manager being this separate thing (Composer). I think the package manager should be part of the PHP distribution itself, not some other thing that people have to find and install separately. I am fine if people want to implement other…

What do you think the advantages would be over a de-facto standard?

Think about it like this. How would you feel about Go, Rust or Node, removing their package managers from all new versions? Then they make a blog post saying, "we are going to let the rich community handle any future work of developing and distributing a package manager".

Re: I still love PHP and JavaScript

#13

Post by WaffleIronMaker »

> I love legacy codebases.

> A legacy codebase means that the product is performing well. It means that I can often make immediate and impactful improvements.

Wow. This person must have worked on very different legacy codebases than me.

Legacy Javascript code, to me, is something that I do not want to touch with a 10 foot pole, because every little piece of it can be intertwined with and used by many other hidden places. Plus, I've never found a legacy JS codebase that has a robust test suite, so any refactoring I do can be hard to test and verify.

From a practicality perspective, I get that the best programming language is the one you can use to build your product, but I tend to long for languages like C# or even Go when I'm trying to deliver a product on a team with 10+ people. Static typing really helps when you're interfacing with someone elses code, and Typescript only aids this point.

Maybe if your target audience is genuinely 10 year olds learning to code, fine. But also if you're building a serious product for a company, please don't choose a "Janky programming language" because I really don't want to have to debug it after you left before really thinking about sanitizing user input.

I feel like, in the hands of a really talented programmer, they can be super productive in PHP or Javascript or really anything. But I've just had a lot of bad experiences with quickly written, undocumented code.

Re: I still love PHP and JavaScript

#14

Post by calvinmorrison »

I spent the afternoon with Laravel, the first real framework I have touched in a decade besides Magento's Behemoth of a MVVCnotreally.

It was quite sane, I had a very nice time. My application works as expected and it took me a few hours to complete, while learning the sort of get-up-and-go bits from the documentation.

So overall, I think it's nice.

Re: I still love PHP and JavaScript

#15

Post by nicoburns »

WaffleIronMaker wrote: post #13

> I love legacy codebases. > A legacy codebase means that the product is performing well. It means that I can often make immediate and impactful improvements. Wow. This person must have worked on very different legacy codebases than me. Legacy Javascript code, to me, is something that I do not want to touch with a 10 foot pole, because every little piece of it can be intertwined with and used by many other hidden pla…

They said impactful champagnes, and that the product is performing well. Nothing in your comment contradicts that.

Re: I still love PHP and JavaScript

#16

Post by svnpenn »

muglug wrote: post #11
svnpenn wrote: post #3

I love PHP, it fits that niche of having a fast startup like Perl, while having a big standard library like Python. However after using Go and Rust, I don't like the idea of the package manager being this separate thing (Composer). I think the package manager should be part of the PHP distribution itself, not some other thing that people have to find and install separately. I am fine if people want to implement other…

Composer is the de facto package manager for PHP. I’ve never seen anyone try to compete with it. I also don’t believe a bundled package manager is necessary — NPM isn’t bundled with JavaScript, and it seems to be doing ok.

> NPM isn’t bundled with JavaScript, and it seems to be doing ok

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here. If you install the Node runtime, it comes with NPM. So it seems you're not correct about this, unless you are referring to some other runtime. And even if you are, why would some other runtime include NPM?

Re: I still love PHP and JavaScript

#17

Post by felipellrocha »

tiffanyh wrote: post #4

PHP has so many hidden benefits: - it's stateless by design (much easier to scale) - it was "serverless" before Serverless - surprisingly performant - no "unknown unknowns". it's so tried-and-true, there's no surprises - deployment is so simple, just drop a file on a web server. No middleware needed. - No long compile times because there is no compiling needed. EDIT: why the downvotes? If you don't agree, just reply…

Because there is no way this is true:

> - no "unknown unknowns". it's so tired and true, there's no surprises

Re: I still love PHP and JavaScript

#18

Post by duskwuff »

muglug wrote: post #11
svnpenn wrote: post #3

I love PHP, it fits that niche of having a fast startup like Perl, while having a big standard library like Python. However after using Go and Rust, I don't like the idea of the package manager being this separate thing (Composer). I think the package manager should be part of the PHP distribution itself, not some other thing that people have to find and install separately. I am fine if people want to implement other…

Composer is the de facto package manager for PHP. I’ve never seen anyone try to compete with it. I also don’t believe a bundled package manager is necessary — NPM isn’t bundled with JavaScript, and it seems to be doing ok.

> I’ve never seen anyone try to compete with it.

Back in the day, there was PEAR, but it was never particularly useful.

Re: I still love PHP and JavaScript

#19

Post by themodelplumber »

candiodari wrote: post #6
tiffanyh wrote: post #4

PHP has so many hidden benefits: - it's stateless by design (much easier to scale) - it was "serverless" before Serverless - surprisingly performant - no "unknown unknowns". it's so tried-and-true, there's no surprises - deployment is so simple, just drop a file on a web server. No middleware needed. - No long compile times because there is no compiling needed. EDIT: why the downvotes? If you don't agree, just reply…

I really like the serverless aspect. I still think nothing has the deployment story that PHP applications have. Just upload some source and your website is up.

Pixar should make a film called "Deployment Story" in which PHP is basically Woody (maybe it's even just the PHP stuffed elephant?), and Woody ends up in the box on the street, and then Woody's dev pal doesn't realize what they've really lost until some reflection is done. I'd watch that.

Re: I still love PHP and JavaScript

#20

Post by tmh88j »

svnpenn wrote: post #16
muglug wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Composer is the de facto package manager for PHP. I’ve never seen anyone try to compete with it. I also don’t believe a bundled package manager is necessary — NPM isn’t bundled with JavaScript, and it seems to be doing ok.

> NPM isn’t bundled with JavaScript, and it seems to be doing ok I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here. If you install the Node runtime, it comes with NPM. So it seems you're not correct about this, unless you are referring to some other runtime. And even if you are, why would some other runtime include NPM?

>>I also don’t believe a bundled package manager is necessary — NPM isn’t bundled with JavaScript, and it seems to be doing ok.

>I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here. If you install the Node runtime...And even if you are, why would some other runtime include NPM?

Node nor any other package managers are included with JS. You seem to be emphasizing their point.

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