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What’s going on with Google and Facebook hiring freezes?

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Re: What’s going on with Google and Facebook hiring freezes?

#471
post #419

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I seriously doubt that. Developing things is the same thing all around the globe. Just because you have worked five years building react apps in silicon valley (and from what I can tell, 250k total comp is reachable at that experience level) does not make you more skilled at building react apps than someone who also built react apps, say, in Barcelona. But you probably make 5 times as much, if not more. That's not be…

There is a difference between building a react app for your local bakery and building Facebook.com to scale. The experience in scaling products that big and that fast is concentrated and not evenly distributed.

You are right that in backend, at FAANG scale, you face some unique challenges that smaller shops don't face. And of course, unless you work at FAANG scale, you haven't faced these problems so you haven't learned know how to solve them, so you will lose if you compete with people who know how to solve them.

But that's far away from the claim from above, that any 250k+ total comp developer from SV can outprogram good people from outside the US who don't make 250k+ total comp in basically any benchmark.

Most SV employees never have to solve these problems.

I picked frontend intentionally because it's probably the area that's the furthest away from these problems, but still compensated at 250k+ levels, if you work in SV for the right employers.

But even among backend engineers, most have never touched hard to parallelize problems. I'd argue that most (definitely not all) FAANG backend tasks are easily scalable. Implementing them still takes work, whch is done by most FAANG engineers. FAANG level tooling definitely helps, and while developing that tooling is hard, the people who have built such tooling are only a tiny subset of FAANG employees (regardless whether they are more skilled than the average FAANG employee or not).

Re: What’s going on with Google and Facebook hiring freezes?

#472

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not hire completely international then?

Timezones and IP and labor laws mostly. Having a team completely unavailable during the USA working day is a real pain for collaboration and it's hard to sue people in other countries that "borrow" your source code to make their own version. Also, knowing exactly how to pay (say) a German developer and how taxes work and what the labor laws are is always an issue. Aside: The very best contractors I ever hired were Uk…

Ukrainians were given full employment rights in Poland after the Russian invasion, so they can just move to Poland (at least the female ones, as males aren’t allowed to leave Ukraine for now).

Re: What’s going on with Google and Facebook hiring freezes?

#473
post #459

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Canadian here. Canadians are clearly the best developers out there and yes, unfortunately, you can slide quite a bit down the payscale to afford us. I'm surprised cross boarder hiring hasn't become even more popular with the pandemic and forced work-from-homeness. Canadians mostly speak English (even most Quebecois do!) and are in a compatible timezone with the majority of the developers either in St. Lawrence valley…

I raise you an Australia. Smaller market and different time zone but cheaper and in my experience they make some exceptional workers/engineers.

I am quite uncertain about the cheaper portion - but the timezones hurt quite a bit and the costs for in-person visits are extremely high. Australia and New Zealand are awesome places (and I'm highly jealous of New Zealand in particular) but a 13+ hr flight to get to the west coast is extremely fatiguing so meetups are highly unlikely - compare that to flying someone down from YVR to SFO and it's a huge price and time difference and SEA and YVR are close enough that the train/bus is usually a very reasonable option.

Re: What’s going on with Google and Facebook hiring freezes?

#474
post #318
post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After completing ~9 interviews (2 video interviews, 5 on-site interviews, and then was asked to complete 2 additional video interviews after mediocre on-site results), I passed Google's "hiring committee" and then was put in their team match process. Over the next 4 months I had ~4 calls with hiring managers, none of them fruitful (and not for lack of my own enthusiasm or willingness to leave my comfort zone). After…

Yeah, it's insane. When I turned down a Google offer because they did such a bad job of the post-interview process, my recruiter was _surprised_. All I could say was: why? what did you think would happen if you didn't find a team I actually could get excited about? (It was worse than that: I told the recruiter I was interested in roles in any location except the South Bay and Seattle's Eastside, and they came back an…

> And they were surprised. As far as I can tell Google can't figure out how to not assume that they're everybody's dream job choice like I guess they might have been in the 2000s.

I think this is a symptom.

Their experience getting hired is likely the same as yours: all your family and friends and even significant others sometimes think its the dream job and the most important accolade in your life.

You know thats its not. They're not in big tech, they're not in medium tech either. You know there's plenty of organizations you can get paid in lottery ticket securities from, you know there's publicly traded organizations with faster vesting schedules and higher stock market upside. But they don't know that.

Many of the people that go into Google was surrounded by that same pressure by their friends and family of getting accepted, and then they also are beneficiaries of Google's infrastructure and financial weight off their shoulders. It distorts their view whether they realize they can get paid more elsewhere or not.

So it selects for that distortion field where people forget that Google is just a choice.

Re: What’s going on with Google and Facebook hiring freezes?

#475
As others have commented, this seems like a smokescreen rather than a real freeze. But as someone who wants to see every monopolistic company broken up or fail spectacularly, I think a hiring freeze at FAANGs is a great opportunity for talented people to consider growing a spine and working somewhere less big and lucrative. To people facing that choice, I would say this: The world is in a weird place right now, and you have probably in some aspect of your life realized that the status quo you have come to expect is unsustainable at best (and a death cult careening off a cliff in many cases). Being able to adapt and handle crises is rapidly becoming the most important skillset to have. Finding opportunities to cultivate it while still making a decent living is a lot less instability than people who aren't still sought-after technical talent have to deal with, and will likely serve you better than grasping at an illusory sense of stability.

Re: What’s going on with Google and Facebook hiring freezes?

#476

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not hire completely international then?

Timezones and IP and labor laws mostly. Having a team completely unavailable during the USA working day is a real pain for collaboration and it's hard to sue people in other countries that "borrow" your source code to make their own version. Also, knowing exactly how to pay (say) a German developer and how taxes work and what the labor laws are is always an issue. Aside: The very best contractors I ever hired were Uk…

> the USA made it illegal to pay them any more.

only ones who stayed in Crimea

Re: What’s going on with Google and Facebook hiring freezes?

#477
post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And it's on the whole asphyxiating the industry. My understanding was that asphyxiating the industry was always the plan. For those who worked in industry pre-2008, one of the major drivers that allowed new startups to be so disruptive was that startups could very often compete with the then major tech companies on compensation. If there was a difference in pay, it was usually minor and could easily be made up for…

I work at Google so my perspective is to be biased, but that's not what I see. I work on infrastructure, and so a few years back, when I proposed a major project, I had to demonstrate how it would save *many* times the fully loaded cost of the engineers on the team, by reducing the Storage TCO for all of Google (for example). It was not enough for the project to "break even" --- the benefits had to do more than just…

> proficient kernel engineers

How is the world does one become a proficient kernel engineer? Without already being at a FANNG.

Re: What’s going on with Google and Facebook hiring freezes?

#478

Both Google and Meta have reached out to me directly for an interview in the last week. When did this hiring freeze begin?

Meta reached out to me yesterday afternoon about a position, it doesn't looking they're freezing for technical positions in AR/VR.

They aren't. There is plenty of hiring if you are in one the priority areas (AR/VR, AI/ML, short form video, ads, privacy) or if you have specific skillsets (ML mostly). Other teams will have trouble getting headcount

Re: What’s going on with Google and Facebook hiring freezes?

#479
post #356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing people miss, demand for software is infinite, so demand for software developers will increase to match any increase in supply.

Demand for pretty much anything is infinite, if you assume a price of 0. So in reality we almost always end up with a non zero price where supply equals demand.

I hear you, I think software is different because it has very few physical constraints.

My appetite for food is not infinite, I can only eat so much. Same, but less so, for cars, clothes, etc. in some abstract sense, maybe, there are people that want 100 cars, but not really.

Even with housing, demand is not really infinite. I don’t want to redo my kitchen every year.

But software, every company has a backlog far longer than they will ever be able to do, and the ROI is there for the most part.

Re: What’s going on with Google and Facebook hiring freezes?

#480

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're projecting a very specific SV bubble. More than enough decent developers exist outside of it, willing to work for a fraction. It's the fat profits and the big boys' eagerness to poach talent that got us this far, which subsequently inflated the QoL in these tech hubs, in turn creating the current standard.

If you know "more than enough" decent developers, you can make a great business connecting them to prospective employers.

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