Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Disneyland with Death Penalty

en.wikipedia.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

211–220 of 245 posts

Re: Disneyland with Death Penalty

#211

Post by kwere »

rayiner wrote: post #158
andrepd wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The usual fallacy, which you also make in your post, is assuming that none of that improvement would have happened under a free and democratic regime. That all improvements were because of iron-rule authoritarianism. Of course there are quite literally thousands of reasons that explain Singapore's economic growth. Attributing everything to only one of them, to the influence of an enlightened dictator, is silly. Want…

It’s not an assumption, but a conclusion based on the evidence. I’m not aware of any Asian, African, or middle eastern country where freedom and democracy led to prosperity. There’s lots of democracies in these places that haven’t been able to translate that into prosperity. On the flip side, China, Japan, Korea, and Singapore are all examples where authoritarian rule has led to prosperity. I’d include Bangladesh the…

botswana is an example of a country where the first/strong leader built democratic institutions that kept the country safe and growing. Obvious to cite diamonds resources, indigeonus leadership, societial values like private property but those dont diminish its miracle. democracy or people participation can look different in differents countires for sure, but PAP undermine any competition in shady ways

Re: Disneyland with Death Penalty

#212

Post by kwere »

pessimizer wrote: post #170
mc32 wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The key is a benevolent "dictator(ship)". A benevolent dictator, from a most utility PoV is better than random search for good government via imperfect democracy. There is little question that a few countries in Asia benefitted from authoritarianism, some were more kid glovish than others, and obviously some were more violent than others in suppressing dissent. However, they achieved economic success for their people…

> China too, initially was too authoritarian and too ideological, till they opened up their economy Too authoritarian and too ideological China lifted more people out of poverty faster than had previously happened on the planet. The problem was that Mao was insulated from information and his intentions were filtered through a corrupt collection of creeps who surrounded him, his wife being one of the worst. It eventua…

not cool to have a big single point of failure for whatever millions of chinese were with MAO or are today with XI Jimping.

Re: Disneyland with Death Penalty

#213

Post by m1gu3l »

brnt wrote: post #132
bnralt wrote: post #82

I personally found Singapore charming when I was there. It's a fascinating mix of several different cultures who all seem to retained many of their traditional customs. I never understood the sterile critique myself, the city never struck me as such. Gibson's main critique, from what I can tell, is the lack of much of a counterculture similar to what you'd find in the U.S. allied-bloc (Europe, U.S., Canada, Japan, So…

Singapore's repression isn't exactly a secret, and if freedom is not a purpose to use your wealth for, then I don't see the point of wealth. Counterculture is healthy and natural for many reasons, and its absence is a concerning indicator for any nation.

> if freedom is not a purpose to use your wealth for, then I don't see the point of wealth.

Perhaps you are not creative or evil enough for exploring alternatives.

Re: Disneyland with Death Penalty

#214

Post by trasz »

blargey wrote: post #42
rayiner wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

The necessary assumption for “children owe me for raising them” is “I have no obligation to raise or nurture my children”.

Not feeling obliged to raise own kids - as opposed to just making sure they survive - seems quite common in the West.

Re: Disneyland with Death Penalty

#215

Post by smallerdemon »

Thanks for posting. It was a nice coincidence since I was literally having a conversation about Singapore with some co-workers that morning it was posted. I am now also digging through my past few years of Wired issues to find the more recent article that served as a follow-up to this one.

Re: Disneyland with Death Penalty

#216

Post by tim333 »

olah_1 wrote: post #25

Ive heard Singapore cited as the one instance where multi-culturalism actually works. The catch being that you need a police state to enforce the norms on everyone. And you enforce it equally.

I think it's a bit unfair on Singapore to call it a police state. In several visits I'm not sure I've even seen the police. I find them much scarier in the US. I remember being in the Singapore area when the George Floyd / BLM stuff happened and thinking the US looked pretty third world in comparison.

Re: Disneyland with Death Penalty

#217

Post by [deleted] »

brnt wrote: post #210
rayiner wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The laws exist to keep the minority of counter culture people from disrupting the orderly society enjoyed by the majority. Elevating the “rights” of the minority over the comfort of the majority is not a universal value.

Protecting minorities from the majority is precisely what democracy is about. Might is not right!

[deleted]

Re: Disneyland with Death Penalty

#218

Post by rayiner »

brnt wrote: post #209
rayiner wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a very western viewpoint! For most Asian societies, “freedom” is a means to an end, not an end in itself. Some level of counterculture is inevitable and must be tolerated. But folks in Tokyo, for example, wouldn’t be happier if their society were more like NYC!

Human rights are not Western, they are universal. Don't eat the propaganda so willingly.

The notion that folks in NYC have figured out some “universal” truth that folks in Japan haven’t is the propaganda.

Re: Disneyland with Death Penalty

#219

Post by rayiner »

trasz wrote: post #214
blargey wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The necessary assumption for “children owe me for raising them” is “I have no obligation to raise or nurture my children”.

Not feeling obliged to raise own kids - as opposed to just making sure they survive - seems quite common in the West.

My dad mentioned the other day that he had the impression that American parents “don’t really love their kids.” I think what he meant was that the western, particularly Protestant, way of raising children is very hands off. In Asia, parents are expected to subordinate their individual identity to their role as a parent. Sadly that makes Asians raising kids in the US particularly thankless—the parents follow Asian norms in sacrificing for their kids but the kids often grow up westernized and don’t reciprocate.

Re: Disneyland with Death Penalty

#220

Post by pydry »

andrepd wrote: post #98
pydry wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The key features that made it fantastically rich were sitting on one of the world's most strategically located ports, building a lot of soviet style housing and a leader with nowhere to run. Being a city state means it's hard to hide when things get ugly. Having capitals far away from citizenry, on the other hand - like in myanmar or brazil, makes it easy to be corrupt. This is a well studied phenomenon. Lee Kuan Yew…

>Being a city state means it's hard to hide when things get ugly. Having capitals far away from citizenry, on the other hand - like in myanmar or brazil, makes it easy to be corrupt. This is a well studied phenomenon. Fascinating, I'd never really thought of this. Do you have a link to any studies about this phenomenon?

https://www.aeaweb.org/articles?id=10.1257/aer.104.8.2456

This is one

Post reply on HN