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Nuclear energy is clean

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Re: Nuclear energy is clean

#631

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You're so confident about nuclear that you feel you need to compare it to purely solar in Germany to make a good case for it? Doesn't this just show that you know it can't compete with solar in equatorial regions or wind in the UK, never mind appropriate combinations of the two across Europe and the rest of the world? And you didn't even compare price. Solar would only need to be 6x cheaper to still win that rigged c…

I'm not so confident about nuclear. Nuclear power generation is a very high end technology, where humankind instead of climbing the learning curve, somehow managed to go in the opposite direction. However, Elon Musk has demonstrated that you can take a technology where costs are going up, and make it do a 180, and take down costs by a factor of 10 and then 100. Can nuclear power generation get to be 100 times cheaper…

It's essentially impossible for anything that drives a steam turbine to generate electricity to get that cheap. Just the cost of the steam parts, if everything else was free struggles to compete with solar today.

Distributed solar also avoid transmission costs, at a certain point a point source of free energy gets outcompeted by distributed solar.

So nuclear might have niches, or exciting new applications but is mostly a dead-end.

Shipping hydrogen about seems likely to be a big thing though, easy transition for existing infrastructure.

Re: Nuclear energy is clean

#632

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The figures I have for France (from Jean-Marc Jancovici) are that for the entire history of French nuclear energy, the total volume of long term, high-intensity nuclear waste is that of a single gymnasium. Which is surely just the fuel. Which itself is a tiny amount of the whole amount of waste a nuclear reactor is responsible for in his lifetime.

But most of that waste is very low level. It's called "nuclear" waste but it's mostly stuff that is at best mildly contaminated.

So now that we talked about the most radioactive and least radioactive waste, we might get to the stuff between. The amount is neither small enough to fit "into a single gymnasium" nor can it be ignored. It has to be stored for generations to come. It can not be reprocessed and the amounts are already so high that most nuclear countries on this planet store it in plain sight. Which isn't a solution for generations...it may not even be a solution for decades or years if the world situation escalates further.

Re: Nuclear energy is clean

#633
post #610

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're arguing for him. Those places do not go anywhere close to full renewable. Germany being one of your best examples has put out vaaastly more CO2 than let's say France. This because it needs variable output to cover the variable output of it's renewables and as their share of the pie grows so do the costs of providing either storage or variable output. The strategy of our Greens in Belgium too was to build gas p…

> Germany being one of your best examples has put out vaaastly more CO2 than let's say France. Or look at Spain. 43% renewable power, less CO2 than France, and shutting down 4 out of 7 nuclear power stations by 2030. The solution to intermittent power is transmission lines, not nuclear. https://www.statkraft.com/newsroom/news-and-stories/archive/...

Spain puts out more CO2 per capita than France and I don't expect it to improve as they reduce their nuclear capacity. Just like our plan to deal with that and boost renewables is big gas plants with long contracts and insane subsidies.

Re: Nuclear energy is clean

#634

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is why companies like Moltex Energy are building a nuclear reactor with a combination of a heat battery. So that they can do 100% utilization and then make massive profit when solar is not there. However that means you are innovating in nuclear and in heat batteries.

If you have good storage tech you can just store surplus renewable energy and don't really need the expensive reactor part though.

Its heat storage, renewables don't generate heat. This would be more like the technology used in CSP.

Re: Nuclear energy is clean

#635

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Currently nuclear reactors take well over a decade from construction to start of operation. If I look at recent ones that went online over the past years most took 5 years.

I’m looking at the list of reactors on Wikipedia and what I’m seeing is pretty much a 8-10 year minimum from construction start to operation start. China is a big exception to this patterns (taking 7-9 years), but China is in a league of its own when it comes to mega-projects. The of the few reactors that did start operation outside of China in the past 20 years there is often some involvement of Chinese construction…

>and close to 20 years is a reasonable estimate for reactors in new facilities.

Our existing facilities were completely new and took about 5 years.

Time has gone up but still.: Page 11 https://world-nuclear.org/getmedia/264c91d4-d443-4edb-bc08-f...

>Are you willing to risk that energy storage is still gonna be lacking in 2030-2040?

Big fat yes. Absolutely.

>Are you sure carbon capturing of natural gas plants will still be economically unfeasible then?

Yep and if it's closer to economically feasible i'm afraid it'll be due to the CO2 being sold for enhanced oil recovery as we pass peak oil.

Re: Nuclear energy is clean

#636
post #603

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many joules would your hill/cavity-and-water (or any of your "numerous cheap alternatives" for that matter) would hold for each dollar spent? How would that compare to actual dams? I need sources & links. Right now I would bet on a highly unfavourable comparison to be honest. Dams have the overwhelming advantage of letting you build a relatively small wall (compared to the lake you're holding), to hold a gigantic…

Ask the people who build them. Hydro power systems need to store a year or more. Utilities will need at most a few weeks. You don't need or want a river. Dams are f'ing expensive because they need geological support for extreme pressure. An earthen dike suffices if you don't already have a depression. Only the penstock needs to hold back high pressure.

Give me sources or it does not exist.

I'm aware of dams. I'm not aware of your fancy alternatives. It is therefore reasonable to assume that those fancy alternatives aren't widely deployed. And that the main reason for this is that they're more expensive (per energy unit).

Without sources, your (admittedly plausible) qualitative arguments are just a pretty story.

Re: Nuclear energy is clean

#637

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But most of that waste is very low level. It's called "nuclear" waste but it's mostly stuff that is at best mildly contaminated.

So now that we talked about the most radioactive and least radioactive waste, we might get to the stuff between. The amount is neither small enough to fit "into a single gymnasium" nor can it be ignored. It has to be stored for generations to come. It can not be reprocessed and the amounts are already so high that most nuclear countries on this planet store it in plain sight. Which isn't a solution for generations...…

Those things in the middle do sound risky. But what's the alternative really? What energy do we have that (i) scales, and (ii) comes at will? Right now that's mostly nuclear and fossil.

Now there's this thing called "global warming", caused by fossil fuels. That thing is poised to displace billions of people as parts of the planet becomes unfit for human life. That means wars, famine, and disease, whose scale will increase with the warming.

What's the greater risk? Those mid-level nuclear waste, or the continued use of fossil fuel? Sure we could have energy storage to make wind and solar work, but the costs to make that work at scale without a secondary source are enormous (I believe Jancovici once reported it would multiply the costs of renewable by 6 or so).

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There's no such thing as "clean" energy. It's a tradeof all around. Our problem right now is to find the least bad source of energy. Which by the way depends on the geographical and geopolitical situation of each part of the world. Nuke plants make more sense in France than they do in other countries. Iceland for instance has more geothermal opportunities.

Re: Nuclear energy is clean

#638
post #507

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Poland has huge salt formations, so I spit on your "optimism" slur. OF COURSE it's much higher if you turn off hydrogen and try to use batteries and curtailment to deal with high seasonality environments. This is Dumb Engineering. Don't do that. You multiply the cost in Poland by more than a factor of 2 when you turn off hydrogen. Poland, as I've said elsewhere in these comments, is also close to the worst place in t…

The salt formations we have aren't necessarily accessible for those purposes. I would not mind being wrong though. As for overbuilding including capacity factor - the size of renewable powerplant tends to be reported in nameplate capacity, not the adjusted for capacity factor, so I'm just trying to keep within common units. And I'm all for building more renewables anyway, I'm just against building fossil backup for t…

People aren't forcefully resettled. Their livelihoods just evaporate if they try to compete with places with natural advantages. I mean, we don't say agriculture is impossible because we can't feasibly grow bananas in Alaska.

If a place that's a renewable energy ghetto tries to compete with sun-soaked places by using nuclear, it won't go well. When solar is being pumped out at $0.013/kWh in UAE, trying to drive internationally competitive heavy industry with nuclear that's an order of magnitude more expensive just won't work. This is a disconcerting new reality for places that have been competitive in a fossil fuel era. They are competing with the best case renewables in a global market.

Re: Nuclear energy is clean

#639
post #524

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Real world grid scale solar + storage is not cheaper, and humanity doesn't even have the battery capacity and won't for some time longer. And speaking of regional poisoning, I guess all of those heavy metal mines in poorer countries creating some quite dystopian scenes of large scale ecological destruction leading to total ecosystem collapse are OK because "NIMBY"! Can't wait to 10X that, especially when I remember t…

Heavy metal mines, like uranium? Because what other heavy metals are you imagining?

You missed the part (well, you IGNORED the part...) where I talk about energy density.

That's obvious because you don't want to compare the amount of lithium required for billions of cars and grid scale solar to cover 16 hours of energy per day.

You ignored it because 8 kWh of heat can be generated from 1 kg of coal, approx. 12 kWh from 1 kg of mineral oil and around 24,000,000 kWh from 1 kg of uranium-235.

Not only is uranium extremely energy dense, but power facilities are extremely small. Nuclear facilities are by far the smallest energy producing facilities, and solar fields are among the largest (both in terms of space and raw materials). This produces mining and material savings at every single step.

A world powered by Uranium only would require probably somewhere between 10,000X to 100,000 less mining than a world powered by solar batteries.

The energy density of uranium is truly amazing.

Re: Nuclear energy is clean

#640

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not so confident about nuclear. Nuclear power generation is a very high end technology, where humankind instead of climbing the learning curve, somehow managed to go in the opposite direction. However, Elon Musk has demonstrated that you can take a technology where costs are going up, and make it do a 180, and take down costs by a factor of 10 and then 100. Can nuclear power generation get to be 100 times cheaper…

It's essentially impossible for anything that drives a steam turbine to generate electricity to get that cheap. Just the cost of the steam parts, if everything else was free struggles to compete with solar today. Distributed solar also avoid transmission costs, at a certain point a point source of free energy gets outcompeted by distributed solar. So nuclear might have niches, or exciting new applications but is most…

I read this opinion in that blog of Austin Vernon that made the HN rounds about a year ago [1]. In the end his argument is basically "if some energy generation method has moving parts, it has to be more expensive that one that doesn't".

But let's look at the numbers.

Here's a study by the EIA that looks at the capital costs and also at the Operating and Maintenance costs of various types of power plants [2].

The costs that are interesting for us are (all costs per GW alternative current of capacity):

  - solar without storage: $1.3 BN (page 175)
  - solar with 4 hours of storage: $1.8 BN (p. 180)
  - coal without CO2 sequestration: $3.7 BN (p. 46) 
  - nuclear AP1000 (similar to Vogtle): $6.0 BN (p. 107)
  - natural gas power plant: $1.0 BN (p. 83)
First of all, notice that the natural gas power plant comes to be the cheapest, despite the fact that it has turbines, including steam turbines. So the general assertion that things with moving parts are more expensive than those without is not quite correct.

You can counter that the estimates are from 2019, and by now solar is probably already cheaper and it will continue to get so, and I suppose you are right. But the panels constitute only 18% of the cost of the solar panel plant, the rest being inverters, transformers, something called BOP (balance of plant), etc. So, if the panels go to zero, the cost of the solar power plant gets reduced by 20% only.

On the other hand, the same is true for nuclear: only about 20% of the cost of a nuclear power plant is attributed to the nuclear part, the rest to the turbines, BOP, etc. So, even if by a miracle the nuclear part were to cost zero, the cost per GW would still be about $5 BN. This is higher than the coal power plant, because the steam generated by coal is much hotter than the one generated by the current generation of nuclear reactors.

Does this prove Austin Vernon's point?

Not necessarily.

First, the fact that gas power plants are very cheap is reason to hope. If we make nuclear reactors that don't use steam (which is corrosive) but some other gas, then it's possible the cost could go down significantly.

Well, less than one year ago China hooked to the grid exactly such a plant [3]. It uses Helium as a coolant, which means that the turbines can be cheaper (they should be similar to the ones used in a gas-firing plant). It also runs much hotter than a regular pressurized water reactor (about 700 Celsius vs 300 Celsius), which means the efficiency is higher.

Can the US build such reactors? I don't see why not, see for example Xe-100 [4]. But the first step is to get back to the nuclear technology learning curve.

[1] https://austinvernon.site/blog/nuclear.html

[2] https://www.eia.gov/analysis/studies/powerplants/capitalcost...

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTR-PM

[4] https://www.energy.gov/ne/articles/x-energy-developing-pebbl...

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