Think different about Jobs • Hacker News Board

Re: Think different about Jobs

#161

Post by forgottenpaswrd » Sun, Nov 13, 2011, 5:51 PM UTC

Napoleon and Alexander the Great killed a lot of people.

Colombus wanted to profit owning a big part of what he "discovered"(including the people).

Most of the founding fathers of America had slaves on their properties and also killed people.

America's pioneers killed native Indians, stole everything they owned and eradicated Buffaloes, dried rivers, cut ancient forest, contaminated the water for profit.

The best generals on the WWs killed people, cheated on their wifes, drank a lot, let their people to beat and rape their enemies...

And here we are discussing that some guy was not perfect. Of course not, learn and focus what you can about the positive and try to incorporate in in your life, if you can.

Re: Think different about Jobs

#162

Post by billpatrianakos » Sun, Nov 13, 2011, 5:59 PM UTC

kiba wrote: post #81

nirvana wrote: post #63

Isaacson's book is a hatchet job, with many errors, and some downright dishonest statements. It is a shame that Jobs cooperated with that hack. In numerous passages, Isaacson will quote Jobs saying something perfectly truthful[1], and then follow it up with a claim that Jobs is lying. Most of the time, he doesn't provide any evidence that Jobs is lying, just the assertion, because, as Isaacson is careful to tell us m…

Honestly, I don't really care about how good Apple products are or how innovative are. I don't use them, I don't hate them either. It's just not for me. My beef with apple is how they felt entitled to control the devices that apple made but consumers own, making them unhackable. When I buy something, I own it, period. I should be able to reverse engineer anything on the market, because I obtained the copy. I don't gi…

Really? Why should you be able to reverse engineer Apple products? What makes you think you're entitled to the source of this company's products?

None of us should feel entitled to be able to hack and reverse engineer anything! If a cdeveloper or company is nice enough to open source something then that's awesome! If you don't like proprietary software then don't buy it. If you want to hack something, make it from scratch or find an open source base for it.

If I run a software company and I'm making something folks really enjoy and get a lot of use from then I'm entitled to charge for it! They're paying me because I did the hard work to develop a tool they find useful and don't have the time, energy, and often times skill to make themselves. If I let anyone reverse engineer it and see the source then someone like you will go ahead and clone it and now my product is worthless. If I lock my customers into a particular toolset and software environment, the reason is twofold. I want to make some money! And that lock in provides a better experience for my customers. I'm not hiding it and no one is forced to buy my products. But they do because it's the best option for their needs.

Open source is great, free software is almost like a cult. What's so bad about making a profit? Why should programmers give away source free but CocaCola is free to keep their secret recipe?do programmers lack the need for food, shelter, and the money to acquire those things?

And the only war in mobile is between companies. There's also this silly war of ideas between the "open" Android platform and iOS. But the real winner is the consumer. There will always be competition. iOS cannot get 100% market share. So consumers have a choice. If the current choices don't suit certain people who want more "freedom" then you're free to start your own mobile platform and build a business around it. And when that happens I wonder if your current attitude toward wanting everything free will still hold. The only freedom afforded by the FOSS movement is the freedom to work your ass off on a piece of software and subsequently starve for lack of income. The FOSS belief that ALL software should free and open source makes it an extremist view. There is a place for both free and proprietary technology in our world. Most of us have to eat and we don't own a farm to grow our own.

I'm reminded of the naive thinking of a teenager whenever I hear rhetoric like this. This ain't no hippie commune.

Re: Think different about Jobs

#163

Post by MrFoof » Sun, Nov 13, 2011, 6:00 PM UTC

nirvana wrote: post #63

Isaacson's book is a hatchet job, with many errors, and some downright dishonest statements. It is a shame that Jobs cooperated with that hack. In numerous passages, Isaacson will quote Jobs saying something perfectly truthful[1], and then follow it up with a claim that Jobs is lying. Most of the time, he doesn't provide any evidence that Jobs is lying, just the assertion, because, as Isaacson is careful to tell us m…

The shallowness and laziness of Isaacson's research is quite staggering. John Siracusa pointed out on Hypercritical this week that Isaacon had a lot of information when there were sources he could borrow them from, but there's no depth from his return to Apple onwards -- because there was nothing already out there for Isaacson to reuse.

For those who want a lot of clear examples of the issues nirvana is highlighting, do yourself a favor and listen to this week's episode ("The Wrong Guy", http://5by5.tv/hypercritical), as well as the upcoming bonus episode.

Re: Think different about Jobs

#164

Post by billpatrianakos » Sun, Nov 13, 2011, 6:11 PM UTC

ahoyhere wrote: post #129

nirvana wrote: post #63

Isaacson's book is a hatchet job, with many errors, and some downright dishonest statements. It is a shame that Jobs cooperated with that hack. In numerous passages, Isaacson will quote Jobs saying something perfectly truthful[1], and then follow it up with a claim that Jobs is lying. Most of the time, he doesn't provide any evidence that Jobs is lying, just the assertion, because, as Isaacson is careful to tell us m…

Thanks for taking the time to write all this up. I haven't delved into my copy yet, but it's great that now I can do so knowing that I shouldn't trust Isaacson's editorializing. I joined Hacker News a long time ago. I think it's shameful that people here now don't know any better -- or don't have the brains -- than to say that it doesn't matter if the book is full of bald-faced lies, because Steve Jobs was not a nice…

I've only been here for about a year but I agree. The iPhone openness arguments and "Jobs was a doodoo head" comments don't belong here. I thought we were all better than that. (I totally just fueled the flames of one of those bad comments though, which I'm embarrassed for).

Re: Think different about Jobs

#165

Post by pbreit » Sun, Nov 13, 2011, 6:16 PM UTC

spacefungus wrote: post #22

pbreit wrote: post #17

This article has a gaping whole: most/all of the people mentioned would not feel that they were mis-treated by Jobs. Quite the opposite, in fact: most people who worked closely with Jobs consider it the highlight of their lives.

I think he's more commenting on Jobs' behavior and how he doesn't like it. I mean, lots of people at Enron talked about it being the thrill of their lives. But as observers we can recognize that their behavior sucks and not like it. (reference -> "Enron: Smartest Men in the Room")

I would not equate breaking the law and causing lots of people to go broke with hurting peoples' feelings.

Re: Think different about Jobs

#166

Post by maratd » Sun, Nov 13, 2011, 6:46 PM UTC

blyuher wrote: post #142

maratd wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Please justify the above statement. How could you possibly know that? Please provide an example of a single billionare or minor celebrity who isn't an asshole. The fact that you can't is evidence enough. > There is something incredibly depressing about this attitude What is really depressing is that you feel your life isn't worthwhile unless you are incredibly "successful" and you define success as being filthy ric…

>Please provide an example of a single billionare or minor celebrity who isn't an asshole. What about Warren Buffett?

> What about Warren Buffett?

It is very easy to trash another person. As an example, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_Buffett#Personal_life and see the wonderful letter he penned his grandchild.

That's not the point.

The point is that all of my experience tells me that you really have to be an asshole and stand on the backs of others to get that far. Nobody is born nor becomes such a savant that people shower you with billions of dollars. You have to be smart, devious, aggressive, and abrasive. That just isn't me. It's not you either. That's OK.

Re: Think different about Jobs

#167

Post by jacquesm » Sun, Nov 13, 2011, 6:47 PM UTC

billpatrianakos wrote: post #162

kiba wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly, I don't really care about how good Apple products are or how innovative are. I don't use them, I don't hate them either. It's just not for me. My beef with apple is how they felt entitled to control the devices that apple made but consumers own, making them unhackable. When I buy something, I own it, period. I should be able to reverse engineer anything on the market, because I obtained the copy. I don't gi…

Really? Why should you be able to reverse engineer Apple products? What makes you think you're entitled to the source of this company's products? None of us should feel entitled to be able to hack and reverse engineer anything! If a cdeveloper or company is nice enough to open source something then that's awesome! If you don't like proprietary software then don't buy it. If you want to hack something, make it from sc…

> None of us should feel entitled to be able to hack and reverse engineer anything!

Yes we should be.

> I'm reminded of the naive thinking of a teenager whenever I hear rhetoric like this. This ain't no hippie commune.

This isn't a get rich quick commune either.

Alternative viewpoints can and do exist on a community this large, neither you nor the OP speak for all of us.

Re: Think different about Jobs

#168

Post by chc » Sun, Nov 13, 2011, 7:09 PM UTC

mushishi wrote: post #102

nirvana wrote: post #63

Isaacson's book is a hatchet job, with many errors, and some downright dishonest statements. It is a shame that Jobs cooperated with that hack. In numerous passages, Isaacson will quote Jobs saying something perfectly truthful[1], and then follow it up with a claim that Jobs is lying. Most of the time, he doesn't provide any evidence that Jobs is lying, just the assertion, because, as Isaacson is careful to tell us m…

As one that has read the book, thank you for giving some perspective on Isaacson's view. Still, it nerves me a lot that you think you know when one should hang on Hacker news. This place is full of interesting technological reads; should I stop coming here because of how I think of Steve Jobs or startups or free market in general. I don't think so.

There are two different things you might mean by "coming here." Hacker News is a pretty good place to learn interesting things, and broadening your mind is always a good thing. In that sense, "coming here" is always fine.

But if we have nothing to contribute beyond ideological ax-grinding, we should just read, not comment or vote.

Re: Think different about Jobs

#169

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Nov 13, 2011, 7:15 PM UTC

andrewcooke wrote: post #43

sjs wrote: post #31

I hope he also avoids products and media made my anyone who has not been an absolute saint their entire life. It's perfectly acceptable to dislike Jobs, no question about that whatsoever. It's also acceptable to stop buying Apple stuff for any reason. But if you're going to put a proverbial line in the sand on moral grounds then you had better stick to your guns and apply that to everything or you just end up looking…

you really think that "anyone who has not been an absolute saint their entire life" is a equivalent to "Devoid of any kind of feelings towards anyone else, he shouts, screams, cries and sulks his way through his petulant life"? because i don't. i think there's quite a difference. everyone can be an arsehole sometimes, sure. but that doesn't excuse those that are consistently unpleasant. there's a clear difference. so…

[deleted]

Re: Think different about Jobs

#170

Post by jonhendry » Sun, Nov 13, 2011, 7:27 PM UTC

cageface wrote: post #160

jonhendry wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And he's worked for Jobs for over 20 years.

I worked for Ed for ten of those. Jobs was very hands off at Pixar. I think he realized that Ed had things under control.

True, but if anyone at Pixar was going to experience the worst of Jobs over the years, it would probably be Ed, because he would be one of the few interacting with Jobs.