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U.S. Army Camouflage Improvement Explained (2013)

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Re: U.S. Army Camouflage Improvement Explained (2013)

#201

Post by NovemberWhiskey »

volumetric wrote: post #131
NovemberWhiskey wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Air Force did get their own camo - the ABU (Airman Battle Uniform) digital tiger-stripe; based on a Vietnam-era tiger-stripe uniform but with a color palette similar to the UCP; only with more blue. In fact, it's not just their own camouflage pattern, the ABU actually had a distinctive blouse and pants that are different from the BDU that came before, or the ACU that the Army had adopted. Then they took the sage-…

I don't get why the branches in which very few folks are likely to need camo (basically anyone other than the army, then, and some sub-divisions of other branches like the marine corp) don't go with old-school olive drab or navy or something. Those single-color uniforms with a slightly dressy cut looked damn slick. I'd think that'd be better for recruiting or improving morale or whatever than the camo uniforms (which…

>camo uniforms ... which, often as not, are the butts of jokes and not considered at all appealing

I think you'll find they're pretty appealing to a lot of the people who want to be in the military.

Re: U.S. Army Camouflage Improvement Explained (2013)

#202

Post by jessaustin »

shard wrote: post #176
happyopossum wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most hunters in the US wear a blaze orange vest or hat to identify themselves to other hunters. In some states it's codified by law, and in others it's strongly encouraged (in California it's a big part of the mandatory hunter safety course, but is not legally required). Many big game animals are color-blind (or more specifically, see color differently than we do), so a camo pattern with orange can still hide one fro…

What if the deer is also color-blind? What colors do deer see anyway?

Ungulates see yellow and blue, but not red.

https://www.rmef.org/elk-network/what-you-see-isnt-what-that...

Re: U.S. Army Camouflage Improvement Explained (2013)

#203

Post by ncmncm »

bityard wrote: post #106
Sharlin wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. Very very few things in nature actually are made of large blobs of a single color (unless you're very shortsighted). Honestly, it baffles me why militaries didn't realize this earlier.

Source: former military member. In combat, camouflage is really the VERY last line of defense possible, and a fairly weak one at that. If the difference between staying alive and being dead is the pattern of your clothing, a lot of things have already gone seriously wrong and your chances of survival are not great. In the grand scheme of things, camo relatively high-hanging fruit. Money and time have mostly been spen…

Snipers need good camo, but the people snipers snipe don't?

Re: U.S. Army Camouflage Improvement Explained (2013)

#204

Post by sandworm101 »

samstave wrote: post #121
bityard wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Source: former military member. In combat, camouflage is really the VERY last line of defense possible, and a fairly weak one at that. If the difference between staying alive and being dead is the pattern of your clothing, a lot of things have already gone seriously wrong and your chances of survival are not great. In the grand scheme of things, camo relatively high-hanging fruit. Money and time have mostly been spen…

I just had a really odd thought cross my head and want to just document here before I forget it: The way rifles work with recoils driving the expulsion of a shell after firing and using that force to load the next round to chamber (the famous AK47 design) -- Would there be a method of attaching a compressed water bottle with valve with a donut nozzle with vents out at angles to the optimal suppression of the muzzle f…

In all honesty, there isnt much room to improve the actions of modern assault rifles. There are dozens of post-stoner improvements that have bern tried. Millions have been spent on them. They have all been shelved as to complex or cumbersome. The gas-operated rotating bolt is so elegant, so reliable, that fundimental improvements are hard to imagine.

Adding water to the equation? Rust, mud, weight, boiling ... you would need some radical improvements to justify such added complexity.

Re: U.S. Army Camouflage Improvement Explained (2013)

#205

Post by ncmncm »

bluGill wrote: post #101
hinkley wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

During the I-for-get-which war, the army hired color-blind spotters because the enemy camo turned out to be fooling fully sighted people but was less effective with red-green color blindness. I don't recall if it was texture or contrast issues but they stood out against the trees and shrubbery enough to locate. So we not only have to worry about invisible spectra, but some filters on visible light may reveal the targ…

Very real issue. My uncle used to be a big hunter (he died a couple years ago), and could never see other hunters wearing the required blaze orange, but when they were wearing camouflage he had no problem seeing them in the woods. I have lots of other stories about the wierd things color blind people see and don't see. (My sisters are color blind, none of my family sees colors exactly the same, makes for some weird s…

Funny, considering most game animals are color-blind.

Re: U.S. Army Camouflage Improvement Explained (2013)

#206

Post by sandworm101 »

bityard wrote: post #106
Sharlin wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. Very very few things in nature actually are made of large blobs of a single color (unless you're very shortsighted). Honestly, it baffles me why militaries didn't realize this earlier.

Source: former military member. In combat, camouflage is really the VERY last line of defense possible, and a fairly weak one at that. If the difference between staying alive and being dead is the pattern of your clothing, a lot of things have already gone seriously wrong and your chances of survival are not great. In the grand scheme of things, camo relatively high-hanging fruit. Money and time have mostly been spen…

>>In combat, camouflage is really the VERY last line of defense possible

Current military member here. It is also the first line of defense against fratricide. It means your friends can tell you from the not-friends. A distinct pattern, unique to your organization, is what stops aircraft from dropping on you. So as current patterns trickle out into private hands, eventually every military organization needs to update its look.

Re: U.S. Army Camouflage Improvement Explained (2013)

#207

Post by ncmncm »

outworlder wrote: post #166
hinkley wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

During the I-for-get-which war, the army hired color-blind spotters because the enemy camo turned out to be fooling fully sighted people but was less effective with red-green color blindness. I don't recall if it was texture or contrast issues but they stood out against the trees and shrubbery enough to locate. So we not only have to worry about invisible spectra, but some filters on visible light may reveal the targ…

If that works, wouldn't wearing glasses to filter out some wavelengths work just as well?

Removing light reduces vision. Color-blind people pick up all the photons, they just don't distinguish them.

Re: U.S. Army Camouflage Improvement Explained (2013)

#208

Post by avereveard »

Sharlin wrote: post #179
rtkwe wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah for a fraction of the cost in complexity, weight and issues with consumables a suppressor does all of what they were talking about and more. The US army is in theory going to a new rifle and issuing suppressors to every (frontline) infantry unit with the NGSW contract. (We'll see how widely the new system and everything actually gets deployed but it was an important part of the whole program at least)

Why not just build one in? I guess I'm accustomed to assault rifles having flash suppressors because the one that I've actually handled and lugged around and shot with, the Valmet RK 62, does have a suppressor built in, a distinctive feature [1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RK_62

Possibly length is a factor

Re: U.S. Army Camouflage Improvement Explained (2013)

#209

Post by ncmncm »

nordsieck wrote: post #90
guessbest wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I personally find the who camouflage switch to every branch of service, including the navy to be bizarre. Who thought it was good idea for navy seamen to be camouflaged in the water? With that line of reasoning why didn't the airforce get their own camouflage to look like a flight line? hah > After six years in the fleet and some controversy, the blue-and-gray cammies could be headed for Davy Jones' seabag. https://w…

> I personally find the who camouflage switch to every branch of service, including the navy to be bizarre. Who thought it was good idea for navy seamen to be camouflaged in the water? With that line of reasoning why didn't the airforce get their own camouflage to look like a flight line? hah Not everything the military does is about effectiveness. Sometimes senior NCOs want the enlisted to "look military", not just…

One word: berets.

Re: U.S. Army Camouflage Improvement Explained (2013)

#210

Post by hajile »

Sharlin wrote: post #127
samstave wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just had a really odd thought cross my head and want to just document here before I forget it: The way rifles work with recoils driving the expulsion of a shell after firing and using that force to load the next round to chamber (the famous AK47 design) -- Would there be a method of attaching a compressed water bottle with valve with a donut nozzle with vents out at angles to the optimal suppression of the muzzle f…

I don't think muzzle flash is a big problem in today's rifles. Any powder left burning by the time the bullet exits the barrel is wasted energy, so things tend to get optimized pretty thoroughly (this is the field of internal and transitional ballistics). Carbine-length firearms (if they're chambered for rifle rounds) do tend to have bigger issues with muzzle flash. Flash suppressors [1], either integrated or add-on,…

Muzzle flash is a HUGE problem with modern ar-15 style rifles. You won't get 100% efficiency until something like 22-26 inch barrels, but that's a VERY long gun to be using (and even those have muzzle flash).

With all the urban combat, there's a push toward shorter and maneuverable. In something short like the 10.5" M4A1 CQBR, flash becomes a much bigger problem (especially in dark rooms where it can be positively blinding to the shooter).

A suppressor helps with this issue, but it also starts adding back length to the gun (somewhat defeating the purpose).

300 blackout supposedly helps the problem (I've never shot it from a SBR) and also has better short-range (esp subsonic) ballistics compared to 5.56, but it too has muzzle flash.

The newly selected Army XM5 rifle and cartridge were designed for super-high pressures and achieving high speeds in a short barrel likely causing even more muzzle flash. Thankfully, this rifle is going to be suppressed for everyone by default. Unfortunately, it's super heavy (and that's without the super-heavy optics), has less ammo per magazine, and despite the goal, is still going to be blocked by higher-level body armor, and is still 36" in a SBR configuration (for comparison, the Israeli CTAR-21 is 30% shorter at just 25" providing rifle firepower in a SMG package).

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