Live data from Hacker News

Time for Army Corps of Engineers to investigate moving water West?

desertsun.com

301–310 of 347 posts

Re: Time for Army Corps of Engineers to investigate moving water West?

#301
post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So much for the bigotry. Europeans are almost as fat as Americans and White Europeans are basically the same as White Europeans in that regard. I've lived all over both continents and yes, Europeans live in very small flats. Energy is prohibitively expensive. I enjoy European culture a bit more (both have advantages), but in North America you have the choice generally to live big or small. Not everyone needs a big ho…

but in North America you have the choice generally to live big or small How is that different in Europe? For the price of a one room flat in the centre of the nice part of town you can equally get a nice big house with a garden way out of town if that is what you prefer. Sure US houses tend to be bigger on average, but it's not like you can't buy a big house on the cheap if that is what you want. You just have to be…

Homes (and flats) in North America are substantially bigger than those in the US and you generally don't have to go 'way out'.

If you go 'substantially out of town' in North America you can live in quite a seriously large home, a size that generally doesn't have comparison in Europe.

Finally, in North America, in most places just 2 hours from the city you can have 'vast' acreage. Very big plots of land.

So the 'size' comparison from flats, to suburban homes, to extra urban homes, to mini-ranches doesn't really compare.

Of course, that comes with significantly more energy usage.

Re: Time for Army Corps of Engineers to investigate moving water West?

#302
post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Average living area per person in NYC is 50 m2, in Berlin it's 40 m2. http://urbancalc.com/post/NYC-Residential-Density/ https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/255812/umfrag...

Thanks! This tracks my experience, good to hear it somewhat justified with data.

I wouldn't describe 4/5ths the size of a house as a cupboard.

50sqm sounds small to me. Does that mean that Germans and Americans live in cupboards?

Or does it mean that that people prioritise different things?

Re: Time for Army Corps of Engineers to investigate moving water West?

#303
post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Average US housing has 3x the floor space and land space as a British house. The Brits are very poor by US standards.

Average housing is mediated by where people want to live and preferences around the value of space. I could move elsewhere in the UK and have 5x the space for the same price, or I could buy a castle in France. But while that castle might be tempting for retirement, I value living close to the centre of London more than I value the extra space.

Yes, supply and demand. And there's considerably more 'supply' of land in the US. Homes are considerably less expensive in comparable relative terms.

So is energy. So is food.

So those are some very primary inputs into the cost of living, which means we live 'expansively' in North America.

In Europe people are super concerned about 'cutting back' that mentality hasn't quite hit in North America.

I suggest Americans will be more interested in aggressively increasing energy production, rather than learning how to live with less, except in some circumstances where I'm sure European advances in 'water saving dishwashers' etc. will be welcome.

Re: Time for Army Corps of Engineers to investigate moving water West?

#304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do Europeans live in small cupboards? There are energy exporting nations in Europe and they're still more energy efficient than the US. Is Europe also food poor because they experience lower rates of obesity? Is eating yourself to death an expression of freedom and the great American dream? >expansive thinking Yes why don't you take your own advice.

So much for the bigotry. Europeans are almost as fat as Americans and White Europeans are basically the same as White Europeans in that regard. I've lived all over both continents and yes, Europeans live in very small flats. Energy is prohibitively expensive. I enjoy European culture a bit more (both have advantages), but in North America you have the choice generally to live big or small. Not everyone needs a big ho…

The US has an obesity rate of 36.20% the highest rate of obesity in Europe is the UK with 27.8% the rest of Europe is in the low 20s. So 'almost as fat' is actually closer to 'a third less fat' and at best '25% less fat'

https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/obesity-r...

Re: Time for Army Corps of Engineers to investigate moving water West?

#305
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I dont like in general enabling people to live wasteful lives Those wasteful people in California only use 20% of the water. The other 80% is agriculture. I am sure there's a great many ways to get farmers to use less water.

If the land is fertile it might make sense to use it (while keeping it fertile) before it turns to desert and the top soil blows away.

I wasn't suggesting we stop farming.

Rather, there's a lot of ways that modern industrial farming isn't as efficient as it could be. A lot of farms farm by brute force: Plant a ton of seeds, spray a ton of fertilizer, blow a ton of water on the fields and hope for the best.

It's how we end up with huge numbers of algal blooms in the waterways - fertilizer runoff is massive in most areas.

Re: Time for Army Corps of Engineers to investigate moving water West?

#306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The great lakes watershed can't be touched. In any case, the solution to floods in a flood plain is to not live in a flood plain or build elevated structures.

Only because of a treaty. If there was monetary compensation for the water I think you would get the states and provinces on board in a hurry. I’d be more concerned about the insane water rights problems being shoved upstream to people in the great lakes basins. Telling me I can’t collect rain water to water my garden so somebody who lives in a dessert 2,000 miles away can be guaranteed the ability to water their law…

Rain barrels are legal in all states bordering the lakes. It isn't like you're stealing water that will disappear from the local environment. It's just a time delay.

Re: Time for Army Corps of Engineers to investigate moving water West?

#307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The only reasonable solution is to stop building new homes right now, and look into how to reduce the number that exists because it's obvious they've already overbuilt. Yep, reduce housing, don’t build more. Nobody wants to admit it because it doesn’t sound nice.

Don't build more in deserts. It sounds crazy that we're even talking about this.

Don't build on coasts susceptible to hurricanes and sea level rise, don't build in the north susceptible to mega blizzards, and don't build in the Midwest susceptible to tornados.

Problem solved/s

Re: Time for Army Corps of Engineers to investigate moving water West?

#309
post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is with forests you destroy existing wildlife and climate change is a big deal. You want more trees not less. Transofrming the west adds more trees (good for climate), economic growth, less food shortage, homelessness and indirectly less social unrest and instability as well. It will solve many problems because it addresses a root cause of many problems: lack of resources and opportunity. Water+Space+rene…

The root cause of homelessness in the west is lack of dense housing construction. Water is overwhelmingly used by agriculture. I'm not going to say it will never make sense to launch a massive project like this, but certainly it wouldn't be free of ecological impacts either

People don't want to live in apartments and the agriculture not only feeds the whole country by a non-negligible amount but also powers the local economy. You are right about ecological impact, would you rather cut down more trees or grow new ones though?

Re: Time for Army Corps of Engineers to investigate moving water West?

#310
post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've lived and traveled in Califoria and the west but have you tried to grow anything here? There's a reason we've built vast megaprojects to pump water around the West: our deserts have been the terminus for the biological nutrient cycle for millions of years through multiple climate cycles resulting in an incredibly fertile ecosystem, despite its desolate appearance. Combined with the heat, it creates the perfect…

From what I gathered this is not about the San Joaquin Valley farms, it's about Vegas, Phoenix, Palm Springs & Desert Hot Springs (Riverside County) and water for people living there. Vegas went from 230,000 in 1970 to over 2.5 million residents in those years. Phoenix from 870,000 to 4,652,000. Riverside County from 44,579 to 2,544,820 So now we've got over 10 Million people living in the desert in just 3 those area…

I'm talking about the entire southwest, not just San Joaquin Valley.

In agriculture, Riverside County is the 13th most productive county in the state in planted crops with $1.2 billion in cash receipts on about 210,000 acres [1]. That's more than any single county in Florida [2] based on crop value and the entire state of Florida produces 5-6 times more agricultural products than Riverside County on ten times the acreage. Most of that is in the Coachella Valley that is adjacent to Palm Springs/Desert Hot Springs and this productivity is despite the massive environmental disaster that is the Salton Sea [3].

I don't have an agricultural report on hand for Maricopa County (Phoenix) but based off a cursory search it produces about a third of the agricultural output of Arizona, which as a whole totals half the cash receipts of Florida's industry, despite a third of the population (though I believe AZ is a lot less productive per acre than FL because it's a lot of pasture).

Now, don't get me wrong: analyzing agricultural productivity - let alone the sustainability of entire metropolises - in dollars per anything is a fool's errand that obliterates all nuance. I'm just trying to illustrate that most [4] of these cities weren't dropped in the middle of desolate wastelands by hopeless fools that kept on attracting more fools. They were founded because the deserts of the southwest provide an ideal environment and all we needed to do was bring a single ingredient. Just take a look at Phoenix in 1885 [5]: farmland as far as the eye can see, half a century before pumping mass amounts of groundwater for agriculture was even an option.

When it comes to the food people want to eat, each [4] of these regions more than pull their own weight [6]. Unless we plan on transitioning the entire country to a wheat/corn/beef/pork/chicken-only diet or significantly decreasing food security or quality of life for everyone, we have to come to terms with the fact that the entire country is not sustainable without the Southwest, which means the region's water supply a national concern. We could completely depopulate all the big cities in Arizona, Nevada, and California without saving as much as a fifth of the water we currently use because the rest is used to feed the nation.

[1] 2020 numbers: http://www.rivcoawm.org/Portals/0/PDF/2020-Crop%20Report.pdf

[2] Florida was first wet state that came to mind and it's top third to middle of the pack nationally in agriculture depending on the specific food group so I think it's representative. 2017 numbers: https://www.fdacs.gov/Agriculture-Industry/Florida-Agricultu...

[3] More precisely, farmers caused that disaster to begin with, but the area is recovering and they are are adopting more sustainable techniques.

[4] I'm ignoring Vegas because it's an outlier that started out as a supply stop for the United Pacific railroad. It only grew to its current ridiculous size when Nevada legalized gambling and the economic activity from the construction of the Hoover dam let the gambling industry develop a permanent foothold that sustained the city.

[5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Phoenix,_Arizona#/m...

[6] We'd actually need to look at export numbers to get a more accurate picture but i.e. nearly half of Arizona's agriculture is exported if I'm understanding the ag department correctly.

Post reply on HN