Live data from Hacker News

U.S. Army Camouflage Improvement Explained (2013)

hyperstealth.com

61–70 of 309 posts

Re: U.S. Army Camouflage Improvement Explained (2013)

#61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Lieutenant! We're sticking out like sore thumbs here! Why did we go with bright-fucking-red as our uniform colour? The enemy can clearly see us coming!" "Corporal, your job is to bang on that drum as we march, not complain about military fashion."

> We're sticking out like sore thumbs here! As I just said, the design consideration wasn't to not stick out. 'Shock action' is a modern military term, but that's partly what they were trying to achieve in those days through visual impact. 'Shatter the enemy's cohesion and will to fight' is something they were trying to achieve through visual impact. As another example today, think about why the UN paint their vehicl…

[deleted]

Re: U.S. Army Camouflage Improvement Explained (2013)

#62
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The British red coats were a kind of dazzle camouflage, making it hard to see individuals within the group. People weren't stupid back then - they just had different design goals to what we have now.

What advantage would it provide to make it harder to distinguish individual soldiers? Wouldn't their enemies just volley fire into the mass of red coats, instead of picking and choosing?

> What advantage would it provide to make it harder to distinguish individual soldiers?

Distinguishing individual soldiers is an important step in counting the size of a line. Accepting "red coats blend together" as truth, that would make it more difficult for an opposing general to determine which parts of a battle line were stronger or weaker, thus making it more difficult to preposition forces to exploit weak sections.

Once the battle was joined the camouflage effect would not have mattered as much, but before the deployment of radio it was also very, very difficult to change battle plans "on the fly."

Re: U.S. Army Camouflage Improvement Explained (2013)

#63
post #52

Tangentially related - Arguably the most famous golf course architect, Dr. Alister MacKenzie (Augusta National, Cypress Point, Pasatiempo, etc), was a civilian physician in WWI and became interested in camouflage design during the war. He made significant contributions to the British military camouflage during his tenure. He later based his golf course architecture, primarily the bunkering, from camouflage design pri…

WWI & WWII related: the Dazzle Camouflage for ships! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dazzle_camouflage

Thanks! That was interesting! Now I know where the phrase razzle dazzle came from!

Re: U.S. Army Camouflage Improvement Explained (2013)

#64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's so interesting how luddite Reformers hold such a sway over the usually techno-optimist HN. Turns out that new technology has teething problems, what a shocker.

Wow, my first comment on the thread, consisting entirely of a quote from expert analysts, and already I'm a "luddite Reformer". (Idiosyncratic capitalization also doesn't help you seem balanced and rational.) This turkey was designed in the 1990s. The contract was awarded in 2001. The first f35 flew in 2006. When will this "technology" no longer be "new"? Presumably it will be some time, since the entire fleet was gr…

You do understand that most new airframes take a decade or more of R&D before they are put in service, right?

Re: U.S. Army Camouflage Improvement Explained (2013)

#65
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The F-35 ended up being great though. Even now, it's cheaper on a per unit basis than other aircraft that are worse.

If you had stopped with the first sentence, we could have written it off as sarcasm. The F-35 Joint Strike Fighter program appears to be in a state of suspended development, with little progress made in 2021 toward improving its lackluster performance. The latest report by the Pentagon’s Director, Operational Test & Evaluation (DOT&E) reveals stagnation and even backsliding in some fleet reliability measures. And tha…

Could you comment on the price aspect I thought up? As I understand it is cheap and only the cost per hour is an issue. Obviously the actual program is expensive, but I wanna ignore that for now and focus on the actual performance.

Because I'm at work and can't look through the full 372 page non-public report linked, can you provide some page numbers I could look at? I'm curious what the actual issues are in actual use.

Btw I'm not of the same mindset of the other guy, I'm not gonna call you a "Luddite Reformer" because I saw a YouTube video.

From when I know many of the issues are FUD, but obviously there is real issues and I'd like to better educate myself. But I am just a layman with limited research time.

Re: U.S. Army Camouflage Improvement Explained (2013)

#66
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What advantage would it provide to make it harder to distinguish individual soldiers? Wouldn't their enemies just volley fire into the mass of red coats, instead of picking and choosing?

> What advantage would it provide to make it harder to distinguish individual soldiers? Distinguishing individual soldiers is an important step in counting the size of a line. Accepting "red coats blend together" as truth, that would make it more difficult for an opposing general to determine which parts of a battle line were stronger or weaker, thus making it more difficult to preposition forces to exploit weak sect…

When determining weaker sections visually, wouldn't you go by "mass" of soldiers? I don't think anybody would count individual soldiers.

In any case, given the technology of the time, if you were beyond engagement range, I don't think you would have been able to pick out individual soldiers by sight regardless of which uniforms they were wearing...

My theory is that vibrant color uniforms were chosen simply to make identification of different formations easier.

Re: U.S. Army Camouflage Improvement Explained (2013)

#67
post #3

It appears that someone circumnavigated the scientific process and forced UCP in. That would be whoever benefitted financially from the decision to fuck our soldiers over.

Having worked (as a civilian contractor) for the military it's equally plausible that the decision was screwed up for other reasons. High up decision makers that "trust their gut" over what the data tells them or who arbitrarily decide that a certain pattern looks silly to them. It's absolutely not intuitive that the digital looking blocky camouflage patterns [1] are going to perform better than the blob style camo p…

Commanders have wide discretion and it's part of the decentralized command mindset. They can sometimes make such decisions on no more than "I think this pattern looks cooler than that pattern"

Re: U.S. Army Camouflage Improvement Explained (2013)

#68

I was hoping to learn why the pixelated designs started appearing. Author says they work; but what led anyone to think that those designs might work? Why did they try them in the first place? And actually, why do they work? I find it bizarre that this is all done by private companies, competing in public competitions, with royalties to be paid for the chosen design. And I'm quite surprised that some designs were foun…

An interesting macro-variant is the Berlin brigade tank camo pattern, which is surprisingly cool! No idea where that comes into uniform camo pattern history nor how efficient it is, but who cares. It's cool beans.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_Infantry_Brigade#/media...

Re: U.S. Army Camouflage Improvement Explained (2013)

#69
Slightly related, in case anyone wonders why most military aircraft are gray and not the camouflage patterns that were previously common on top surfaces, hushkit has a writeup: https://hushkit.net/2020/03/09/grey-aircraft-who-is-to-blame...

tl;dr: gray is a good camouflage color against clouds or haze, which is a fairly common background for aircraft operating at mid to high altitudes.

(The logic is fairly similar to what results in Navy ships being painted haze gray and not azure blue or whatever color the ocean happens to be today)

Re: U.S. Army Camouflage Improvement Explained (2013)

#70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's so interesting how luddite Reformers hold such a sway over the usually techno-optimist HN. Turns out that new technology has teething problems, what a shocker.

Wow, my first comment on the thread, consisting entirely of a quote from expert analysts, and already I'm a "luddite Reformer". (Idiosyncratic capitalization also doesn't help you seem balanced and rational.) This turkey was designed in the 1990s. The contract was awarded in 2001. The first f35 flew in 2006. When will this "technology" no longer be "new"? Presumably it will be some time, since the entire fleet was gr…

I think the reason why you're getting some pushback is because we've heard all these before with another aircraft that had similar teething and development problems: the F-15.

The F-15 project was supposed to be a small and light fighter but feature creep" blew the project up into a massively expensive boondoggle. Some of this was due to the fear of the MIG-25; an aircraft we later learned wasn't so scary.

Yet today, the overpriced, chronic cost-overruning F-15 sits at an impressive 109:0 kill to loss ratio, making it the best performing aircraft in the United State's history.

But you would be correct in saying the F-35 is no F-15. It has a stealth coating that is expensive to maintain (this is true for all stealth aircraft). It also flies with a ton of electronics to function as a "sensor network in the sky".

But in many ways, this is similar to the complaints about the F-15 and its (For the time) dizzying array of modern technologies: An advanced lookdown/shootdown radar, support for BVR missiles, IFF, EW and ECM systems all linked to a central computer. Technically other aircraft had these technologies in the 1970s, but none until the F-15 had them all in the same aircraft. Fast-forward a few decades and that "feature creep" doesn't even quality as "bare bones" for any air superiority fighter.

Anyway, if you want a multi-role aircraft without the stealth or sensor network gizmos of the F-35 there's the Gripen E series. Its purchase price is greater than the F-35 but its operating costs are much less. If you don't envision your country's airforce performing too many SEAD missions this tradeoff might make sense... but there's no free lunch!

Post reply on HN