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Nuclear energy is clean

collectifission.nl

361–370 of 709 posts

Re: Nuclear energy is clean

#361

This article perfectly exemplifies the arguments in discussions. Lets just concentrate on the waste discussion. The article says heavy metals in solar panels are a problem (I kind of agree, although the way it is described makes it out like we are talking about huge amounts, in reality the lead in solar panels is largely from soldering so very small amounts. Orders of magnitude more are being used for other applicati…

> "While in reality renewables are on an exponential cost reduction trajectory "

And now we are looking of some development in the future. The usual argument I keep seeing is that with the exponential cost reduction in solar and green hydrogen we will have in the future a combination that will be cheaper than the nuclear costs of today. A comparison of the current state of nuclear to some future potential solar + storage solution. Maybe we should use the same description for this and call that dishonest comparison?

The current state in northern Europe are wind and some solar in combination with large capacity gas (and some coal/oil). This is why Russian gas, oil and coal has such a huge impact of the electricity price in Europe, and why countries are currently setting up plans to disconnect part of the grid if the threat of limited gas supply continues to next winter. The grid is built on renewables when they are available, running around 50% on average in some countries, and for the remaining we burn a lot of fossil fuels. All the waste of those burned fossil fuels are put into the environment for society to address at a later date.

Maybe it is time for honesty in energy discussions, and also make intention clears. We should ban fossil fuels from being used in the energy grid, and we should set an date for that ban which corresponds to the common scientific understanding of global warming. We should also take in the data from doctors and health scientists that have first hand experience with fossil fuel pollution. With that, we need to build an energy grid that operates without having fossil fuels to fall back on.

Re: Nuclear energy is clean

#362

This article perfectly exemplifies the arguments in discussions. Lets just concentrate on the waste discussion. The article says heavy metals in solar panels are a problem (I kind of agree, although the way it is described makes it out like we are talking about huge amounts, in reality the lead in solar panels is largely from soldering so very small amounts. Orders of magnitude more are being used for other applicati…

It is not about "cleanness", it is not about "costs in future". There are two core points why nuclear plants matter and only they matter so far.

First they are practical - unlike all renewables nuclear energy plant provides stable influx of energy to the electric grid, regardless of the weather condition. As long as we don't have good and, again, practical energy storage, renewables usability will be always limited. And so far we don't see any true innovation in the long term, large scale batteries tech - ritual monthly "at last, new battery tech invented in X" article in popular magazines is not enough since those "new" batteries either has to work in 10 Kelvin temperature or would need to have size of the Moon. Pumped-storage hydroelectricity is, unfortunately, not practical as it requires very specific terrain and water sources. It is great we can build them here and there, but that's not the solution for the problem.

Secondly, nuclear energy plants does not produce CO2 and this is what we want to get rid off, as I understand.

Nuclear wastes are different story, unfortunately for the past 50 years there was almost no innovation in nuclear plants sector as well since everyone who would like to work on this was treated by the Academia like Holocaust deniers and anti-vaccination activists. Nuclear wastes are radiating, which means there is energy there, let's try to find the way how to use is, maybe it is easier than the search for the battery Holy Grail.

Re: Nuclear energy is clean

#363
post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m sorry, are you questioning the fact that exposure to strong gamma radiation would kill you? What are you talking about?

It can kill you like taking a fork to the nearest power outlet can kill you. Do you suggest we get rid of them? Of course not. They are risks to be managed, and history suggests the risk is fantastically low.

How is this relevant? Did you read JanisErdmanis’ comment I responded to?

Re: Nuclear energy is clean

#364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and we have other options that we didn't have 20 years ago. We do, but those options are not enough. If they were, the Democrats in Washington would not have turned pro-nuclear. They saw the numbers. You can store electricity from day to night, but not from Summer to Winter. Months-long electricity storage will never make economic sense (or at least not in the next 30 years). Nuclear reactor construction is current…

> You can store electricity from day to night, but not from Summer to Winter. Hydrogen can do that.

Synthetic hydrocarbons can do that much better than hydrogen.

Also ammonia can do that much better than hydrogen.

There are also several types of flow batteries which can store energy for any time desired, without losses. Compared to hydrocarbons or ammonia they have a low energy density (which is not prohibitive for stationary applications), but they have a higher energy efficiency for a charge and discharge cycle, similar to the other kinds of batteries.

Hydrogen is the worst solution for long-term energy storage, compared to the many other alternatives, which are also already proven in practice, unlike hydrogen. Hydrogen is good only for rockets, when its low mass is more important than its high volume and all its other disadvantages.

Re: Nuclear energy is clean

#365
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

radioactive waste stays much longer radioactive than being dangerous If it’s radioactive it’s dangerous. The article points out that radioactive waste doesn’t stay radioactive for very long, contrary to what is commonly believed.

Bananas are radioactive and not dangerous.

In the context of a discussion about nuclear reactors bananas are not radioactive.

Re: Nuclear energy is clean

#366
post #165

There is this idea that nuclear is not being deployed because people have a wrong perception of risks. However, the main reason is the economy. The costs of solar, wind and batteries are dropping exponentially but the costs of nuclear are not improving. We can blame regulation and the hypothetically wrong public perception about safety, but the reality is that costs cannot go down easily because of the innovation dyn…

> A nuclear reactor cannot be shipped.

There does exist an exception to this. Russia built a floating nuclear power plant. There is a lot of controversy around it.

However the main claim that economy is the center of the argument is true. Fossil fuels are exceptional cheap as a battery solution to be combined with solar and wind, especially wind which don't have 365 days of charge cycles. Natural gas in Europe play the central role of filling in when wind/solar production goes down, with oil and coal coming in next. Since fossil fuels aren't burned all the time, a much higher cost per kw/h is tolerated, even when the spot price reaches upwards to 10x higher than the average cost. This winter they are expecting prices to exceed that by twice or more, and the average this year is already looking to be twice of last year.

The economics right now is a bit funky. Nuclear has most of their cost attached to the constructions, so with energy prices being almost doubled compared to last year, nuclear is looking quite economical. If inflation continues as it has been then a nuclear plant built 30 years will start to look really cheap compared to a wind + gas turbine. The biggest winners in term of profit however are the gas power plant owners, seeing record profits as a result of being able to charge record prices.

Re: Nuclear energy is clean

#367

This article perfectly exemplifies the arguments in discussions. Lets just concentrate on the waste discussion. The article says heavy metals in solar panels are a problem (I kind of agree, although the way it is described makes it out like we are talking about huge amounts, in reality the lead in solar panels is largely from soldering so very small amounts. Orders of magnitude more are being used for other applicati…

I also don't believe nuclear waste would pose a significant problem. There are many ways of containing waste as well as reducing. Plasma disposal is also feasable for reducing the waste even further. RE : https://inis.iaea.org/collection/NCLCollectionStore/_Public/... Fossil fuels release about 33 billion tonnes annually in co2 release. And that's not even possible to contain. https://www.world-nuclear.org/informatio…

> I also don't believe nuclear waste would pose a significant problem. There are many ways of containing waste as well as reducing.

And than all you bring up is some technology which is in testing proving OPs argument.

Sure there are ways of reducing highly radioactive waste...at the cost of creating more waste you still have to store...and yeah sure you can dispose some of it in the sea. Also it costs a hell lot of money.

> Fossil fuels release about 33 billion tonnes annually

Nobody questions the bad side of fossils.

The topic is renewables vs. nuclear though.

Re: Nuclear energy is clean

#368
post #361

This article perfectly exemplifies the arguments in discussions. Lets just concentrate on the waste discussion. The article says heavy metals in solar panels are a problem (I kind of agree, although the way it is described makes it out like we are talking about huge amounts, in reality the lead in solar panels is largely from soldering so very small amounts. Orders of magnitude more are being used for other applicati…

> "While in reality renewables are on an exponential cost reduction trajectory " And now we are looking of some development in the future. The usual argument I keep seeing is that with the exponential cost reduction in solar and green hydrogen we will have in the future a combination that will be cheaper than the nuclear costs of today. A comparison of the current state of nuclear to some future potential solar + sto…

>The usual argument I keep seeing is that with the exponential cost reduction in solar and green hydrogen we will have in the future a combination that will be cheaper than the nuclear costs of today.

Thats what its like today. That's probably why the nuclear PR articles almost never try to compare costs or speed of construction with demand shaping + solar + wind + storage. It does not stack up well.

Re: Nuclear energy is clean

#369
post #165

There is this idea that nuclear is not being deployed because people have a wrong perception of risks. However, the main reason is the economy. The costs of solar, wind and batteries are dropping exponentially but the costs of nuclear are not improving. We can blame regulation and the hypothetically wrong public perception about safety, but the reality is that costs cannot go down easily because of the innovation dyn…

> The costs of solar, wind and batteries are dropping exponentially but the costs of nuclear are not improving. So where can I see a cost comparison that factors in the cost of storage ? I've probably seen 20 people say this exact same thing and have never been able to find an actual cost breakdown that supports it.

I have also not been able to find relyable datapoints on the total insurance cost of a nuclear fascility. I'd love to talk to someone in the insurance industry how they calculate this because that'll probably be a decent indicator of the risk involved.

Re: Nuclear energy is clean

#370

This article perfectly exemplifies the arguments in discussions. Lets just concentrate on the waste discussion. The article says heavy metals in solar panels are a problem (I kind of agree, although the way it is described makes it out like we are talking about huge amounts, in reality the lead in solar panels is largely from soldering so very small amounts. Orders of magnitude more are being used for other applicati…

It is not about "cleanness", it is not about "costs in future". There are two core points why nuclear plants matter and only they matter so far. First they are practical - unlike all renewables nuclear energy plant provides stable influx of energy to the electric grid, regardless of the weather condition. As long as we don't have good and, again, practical energy storage, renewables usability will be always limited.…

> First they are practical - unlike all renewables nuclear energy plant provides stable influx of energy to the electric grid, regardless of the weather condition.

That was "practical" in the 80s. Today it's a problem. You need to have a flexible grid to profit from the cheapest energy available. Having some expensive energy source clog up the grid so you have to turn off solar or wind is a bad thing.

> As long as we don't have good and, again, practical energy storage, renewables usability will be always limited

That baseload myth is dead these days. Batteries are merely one way to store energy but they’re not the only way. They’re not even the leading way.

A combination of efficiency, demand response, transmission, optimal mix of wind and solar, along with some storage will be more than enough to get us beyond 100% of current service demand.

And all of this is already working in parts of the world. For example in the EU where all that green and brown energy from Germany is saving Nuclear-Frances ass at the moment and has been every summer and winter for at least the last decade.

> nce everyone who would like to work on this was treated by the Academia like Holocaust deniers and anti-vaccination activists.

Billions disappear in nuclear research and has been since it's been invented. Billions which could have been invested into renewables which unlike nuclear produces real and fast progress so please...don't spread fake news.

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