Think different about Jobs • Hacker News Board

Re: Think different about Jobs

#11

Post by jarcoal » Sun, Nov 13, 2011, 2:07 AM UTC

schraeds wrote: post #6

You kind of have to be an asshole to get things done. The best coaches and mentors in my life caused me displeasure in their relentless efforts to push me further than I thought I could go.

Exactly right. Companies do not get ahead by having mellow pushovers at the top.

People having been talking a lot about how he stole all of the design credit from Ives. This might be the case, but I'm willing to bet you that Ives would be the first to admit that Jobs helped him unlock his true potential.

Re: Think different about Jobs

#12

Post by atdt » Sun, Nov 13, 2011, 2:16 AM UTC

schraeds wrote: post #6

You kind of have to be an asshole to get things done. The best coaches and mentors in my life caused me displeasure in their relentless efforts to push me further than I thought I could go.

There's a difference between being an effective drill sergeant and being a jerk. Parking in handicapped spots has nothing to do with driving your employees to excellence.

Re: Think different about Jobs

#13

Post by petercooper » Sun, Nov 13, 2011, 2:18 AM UTC

the biography has actually made me think twice about buying anything Apple-branded again.

This seems as asinine as refusing to buy a Volkswagen because VW was founded by Nazis.

Re: Think different about Jobs

#14

Post by ditojim » Sun, Nov 13, 2011, 2:22 AM UTC

ryan-allen wrote: post #9

While you can point at how he conducted himself at Apple and scream "Monster!", what isn't mentioned in this post but is dealt with at length in his biography is how he conducted himself at Pixar. He was much more low-key about the 'products' at Pixar, he mostly was an enabler and negotiator for them. In Pixar's early days he invested an awful lot of his then-fortune into keeping it alive, and it was his cunning nego…

even if the cost is other people? your last statement is a dangerous stance.

Re: Think different about Jobs

#15

Post by atdt » Sun, Nov 13, 2011, 2:24 AM UTC

jarcoal wrote: post #11

schraeds wrote: post #6

You kind of have to be an asshole to get things done. The best coaches and mentors in my life caused me displeasure in their relentless efforts to push me further than I thought I could go.

Exactly right. Companies do not get ahead by having mellow pushovers at the top. People having been talking a lot about how he stole all of the design credit from Ives. This might be the case, but I'm willing to bet you that Ives would be the first to admit that Jobs helped him unlock his true potential.

Taking credit for other people's creative work is a shit thing to do. Whatever benefits Ive may have drawn from the relationship aren't relevant. Daddy doesn't get to beat the kids just because daddy puts food on the table.

Re: Think different about Jobs

#16

Post by spacefungus » Sun, Nov 13, 2011, 2:25 AM UTC

I'm a fan of Steve Jobs for his vision and ability to see things we all blatantly are unaware of. He changed technology, but also advertising, movies, music, etc.

But I'm glad to see someone holding him accountable for his life and the consequences of his actions.

The iPhone rocks, but the Foxconn factory it was made in is so fucking hard to work in that they have suicide nets on the roof; almost a dozen have killed themselves to escape the 14+ hour days.

The MacBook is beautiful, the iMacs are amazing, the software (before Lion) had a simplicity and aesthetic that were unmatched.

But to ignore the fact that many people were screwed over by Steve, that many people were payed a few cents an hour to make his products, and that he was a cold, arrogant man is just ignorant.

Thomas Edison was a shrewd, competitive, harsh man. Does this mean we should ignore his contributions to science? Absolutely not. Nikola Tesla , Leonardo Da Vinci, Howard Hughes, etc. etc. all had negative qualities like every other human. They contributed a lot to the world, though.

So some of the comments that are accusing this post of being over-dramatic or don't want any criticisms of Lord Jobs are foolish. He did a lot of good and a hell of a lot of bad. Acknowledging and accepting both, and then learning from both, is fair and rational. Facts are facts.

Re: Think different about Jobs

#17

Post by pbreit » Sun, Nov 13, 2011, 2:26 AM UTC

This article has a gaping whole: most/all of the people mentioned would not feel that they were mis-treated by Jobs. Quite the opposite, in fact: most people who worked closely with Jobs consider it the highlight of their lives.

Re: Think different about Jobs

#18

Post by spacefungus » Sun, Nov 13, 2011, 2:35 AM UTC

moxiemk1 wrote: post #4

>> But what worries me is the amount of stupid businessmen who’ll be copying Jobs’s behaviour. (I say “businessmen” on purpose, since I’ve yet to encounter a businesswoman, on any level, who treats people in an unpleasant way). Recognizing that I say this from a white, cis-gendered, born to highly intelligent (if not at all successful) parents perspective, I don't think that comments like that are appropriate. First,…

This is completely irrational and irrelevant. A misogynist is someone who hates women and/or girls. He's saying he's never encountered a bad business woman, which is not hatred at all under any circumstance. He's a man writing about a man, so the gender of pronouns shouldn't mystify or bother you. And "those seeking to better their own image while perpetuating a problem" isn't any form or category of misogynist. See the definition at the beginning of this comment for reference.

And he did not say "negative businesswomen do not exist". He said he's never personally encountered any.

Re: Think different about Jobs

#19

Post by Game_Ender » Sun, Nov 13, 2011, 2:37 AM UTC

ditojim wrote: post #14

ryan-allen wrote: post #9

While you can point at how he conducted himself at Apple and scream "Monster!", what isn't mentioned in this post but is dealt with at length in his biography is how he conducted himself at Pixar. He was much more low-key about the 'products' at Pixar, he mostly was an enabler and negotiator for them. In Pixar's early days he invested an awful lot of his then-fortune into keeping it alive, and it was his cunning nego…

even if the cost is other people? your last statement is a dangerous stance.

It's a greater good kind of thing. Eisenhower, Patton, Roosevelt won WW2, but were directly responsible for the death of hundreds of thousands. In most case people no their chances when they decide to work under these kinds of people.

Re: Think different about Jobs

#20

Post by LaGrange » Sun, Nov 13, 2011, 2:41 AM UTC

pbreit wrote: post #17

This article has a gaping whole: most/all of the people mentioned would not feel that they were mis-treated by Jobs. Quite the opposite, in fact: most people who worked closely with Jobs consider it the highlight of their lives.

This is, sadly, something that happens often to victims of sociopaths. The sociopaths came, he did bad things to them (that is, directly, mentioned), then left them in the cold, feeling sad, and still, he was "the highlight of their lives".

At least that's what I see in so many stories in that book.