Dear startups: I hate subscription services (2021) • Hacker News Board

Re: Dear startups: I hate subscription services (2021)

#351

Post by jbluepolarbear » Sat, Jul 30, 2022, 5:38 PM UTC

goosedragons wrote: post #336

jbluepolarbear wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What’s an operating system that makes it possible?

I'm willing to bet that Windows 10 or 11 would have zero trouble running some random version of Quicken from 2002. Most PC games from that era are still easily runnable without too much hassle and those have way more complexity and weird crap to deal with. Linux might be doable too if it doesn't have a bunch of shared libraries or if you at least know what versions it needs.

That’s about what I was thinking. I made and distributed a small application on Windows, Mac, and Linux back in the late 2000s and only the windows version still works. Getting the Linux version wouldn’t take much work, but the mac version would need to be rewritten.

Re: Dear startups: I hate subscription services (2021)

#352

Post by spaceman_2020 » Sat, Jul 30, 2022, 5:41 PM UTC

shafyy wrote: post #238

spaceman_2020 wrote: post #180

Part of the problem is that most of these startups simply have too much overhead to offer their product for free or cheap. Like I never understood why most of these basic tools morph into 100+ people companies. A tool like Evernote can be built and maintained by under 20 people. Even at inflated salaries, your yearly burn would be under $10M. This is part of a broader trend of startup overhiring. Like Better.com had…

> Like I never understood why most of these basic tools morph into 100+ people companies. Simple answer: They've signed a deal with the devil (VC funding) and now need to grow to make a > 1 billion dollar exit.

Happening in so many Indian startups right now. They lived off VC money for a decade with no profits in sight. Now they’re trying to monetize their users and finding out that most won’t pay or can’t pay.

Re: Dear startups: I hate subscription services (2021)

#353

Post by rolph » Sat, Jul 30, 2022, 5:43 PM UTC

kurupt213 wrote: post #339

chrisandchris wrote: post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, yes, I agree. But why design a thing that way? Is there really no other way? What if the company goes down, now you have a very expensive useless doorbell you even paid for a long time. And it's not like there's much new functionality one can put in a doorbell. I'm not sure the server really costs that much each month.

I remember reading here that a smarthome company has already failed, essentially turning the physical hardware into junk. The default option should be self hosted, with premium subscription for those who choose

that should perhaps be modified to easily or readily self hosted , AND compatible with normal internet protocols.

one of the biggest problems is getting the information easily.

i used to ask sales reps if a device requires subscriptions, or if it is stand alone no 3rd party server required, but i stopped doing that, since no one seems to be able to answer the question. There is a good portion of -not knowing what you are even selling, but the practice of playing dumb to make the sale is alive and well.

I now make the blanket assumption that any new hardware will have this issue.

consequently im in the habit of turning junk, into usable hardware, instead of buying new. I wish this would really catch on, but most people are sucked in by the apparent convienience vs the superfluous difficulties dangled around something that really is simple at its foundation.

Re: Dear startups: I hate subscription services (2021)

#354

Post by projektfu » Sat, Jul 30, 2022, 5:48 PM UTC

blep_ wrote: post #345

projektfu wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, but if my dehumidifier model causes fires it will be recalled and I'll get my money back to buy a new one. Although, I think some companies use recalls in a dark pattern, specifically baby product companies.

I'm curious now, can you expand on dark recall patterns?

Baby stuff companies make a lot of money selling new items and nothing from used items. Their things are always on the recall posters at stores. Are they all super dangerous? Or do they recall things that are a few years old so that the used items shouldn't be sold? I imagine the cost of a recall of something that has been discarded or put in the closet is pretty low.

Incidentally, perhaps you can eventually be paid back for your stroller or crib if you do keep the receipt and watch the lists.

Thrift stores will have to check recall lists of donated items and discard the ones that are recalled, or there might be some legal exposure.

Re: Dear startups: I hate subscription services (2021)

#355

Post by AH4oFVbPT4f8 » Sat, Jul 30, 2022, 5:55 PM UTC

xg15 wrote: post #26

mattjenner wrote: post #21

Dear innovative people: think of a better model. 1. Free = problematic with the lack of money 2. Freemium = looks good if the balance is right 3. Ads = Mostly works but the model is flawed and skewed 4. Subscription = Love/Hate currently trendy but too relied on 5. Pay-what-you-can = Fans provide the service for everyone 6. Premium only = Only what it's worth, when it's worth 7. Enterprise = S'ok because my company/o…

How about good old "pay for it once, then own it"?

How does that work when there is a vulnerability or updates that are required? How long does the company have to support the software?

Re: Dear startups: I hate subscription services (2021)

#356

Post by withinboredom » Sat, Jul 30, 2022, 5:58 PM UTC

spcebar wrote: post #277

nathan_compton wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one is going to use an unpatched bug in your chair to rob your house.

You live in a fancy apartment building that has a lobby with a concierge. The building isn't going to give the concierge $100,000 and tell them, okay keep coming back for the rest of your life. If the lobby of your building has a fancy chair in it, the furniture company isn't going to expect $10 a month forever to keep using it, and on the flip side, if the furniture turns out to be accidentally made of asbestos, it'…

> There's absolutely cases where software should be a subscription model and there's absolutely cases where it shouldn't be.

My thoughts on this:

1. How long would it take a team of 4 people to build this with just the features I need for a single user?

2. How much would it cost to contract a team to build that (ball bark)?

If it can be done on a single person's salary, I'm not paying a monthly subscription, no matter how inexpensive. I'm also not contracting that work either, but I might be tempted to compete with them if my employer let me (they won't).

Only certain things make sense as a subscription, and those are things that have an infinite (or practically infinite) cost to the consumer, thus they should have an amortized infinite cost.

Re: Dear startups: I hate subscription services (2021)

#357

Post by yummybear » Sat, Jul 30, 2022, 6:05 PM UTC

How do you feel about a non-renewable subscription, i.e. pay for 12 months access, and then having to re-pay at the end of the cycle to restore access?

Re: Dear startups: I hate subscription services (2021)

#358

Post by nvr219 » Sat, Jul 30, 2022, 6:12 PM UTC

OJFord wrote: post #201

nvr219 wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is unrealistic to expect to be able to pay once and use an app "forever". No it's not. This is very realistic: pay once for a license to use the software, and then you pay a maintenance fee every year to get the updates and new versions. You stop paying, you stop getting the updates, but whatever you have already still works. There's no shortage of examples but I'll give a shout-out to one of my favorite softwar…

That works for a stand-alone app, but not SaaS, a web-app, or an app that uses 'cloud features'.

Okay, but there are plenty of subscription apps that could just drop the cloud features and like 99% of the user base would be fine with that, Office and Adobe suites being obvious examples.

Re: Dear startups: I hate subscription services (2021)

#359

Post by XCSme » Sat, Jul 30, 2022, 6:42 PM UTC

gordaco wrote: post #67

I'm a very, very firm believer on not paying for "subscription" to software. New content, I can understand (I spend about 40€ monthly on several Patreons, mostly comic artists; and I have a couple news subscriptions as well), although I still hate music/tv subscriptions and I don't want Netflix, Spotify or whatever. But for software, no matter how useful it is , I just refuse to choose between an unbounded price and…

What do you think of the pricing model that I'm using[0] - one-time payment with optional paid subscription for updates and support? I tried one-time only, but it's simply not sustainable or leads to the product not being updated anymore.

[0]: https://www.uxwizz.com/pricing

Re: Dear startups: I hate subscription services (2021)

#360

Post by spcebar » Sat, Jul 30, 2022, 7:12 PM UTC

withinboredom wrote: post #356

spcebar wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You live in a fancy apartment building that has a lobby with a concierge. The building isn't going to give the concierge $100,000 and tell them, okay keep coming back for the rest of your life. If the lobby of your building has a fancy chair in it, the furniture company isn't going to expect $10 a month forever to keep using it, and on the flip side, if the furniture turns out to be accidentally made of asbestos, it'…

> There's absolutely cases where software should be a subscription model and there's absolutely cases where it shouldn't be. My thoughts on this: 1. How long would it take a team of 4 people to build this with just the features I need for a single user? 2. How much would it cost to contract a team to build that (ball bark)? If it can be done on a single person's salary, I'm not paying a monthly subscription, no matte…

I've always thought about this in relation to the cost to the company rather than the consumer. I appreciate that different perspective.

Do you think there's a case where something might have an infinite cost to the consumer but a finite cost to the company? Ie a solution to some recurring problem that, without the software or service the customer would endlessly pay for, but with the software or service would not incur the recurring cost--and in that situation, do you think it would be fair for the company to charge a recurring fee given that it's not costing them to continually develop it? So the customer is saving money compared to before they had the software but it's not supplementing a cost of development?