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Review of 17α-ethynylestradiol in water across 32 countries: Estrogenic effects

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Re: Review of 17α-ethynylestradiol in water across 32 countries: Estrogenic effects

#121

Post by pfisherman »

rayiner wrote: post #82
marricks wrote: post #8

I'm concerned this is making numbers here because of fear mongers so I want to run the numbers a bit to > The top 10 countries ranked in the order of high to low average EE2 concentration in surface water, were Vietnam, Cambodia, China, Laos, Brazil, Argentina, Kuwait, Thailand, Indonesia and Portugal, with the respective mean concentrations of 27.7, 22.1, 21.5, 21.1, 13.6, 9.6, 9.5, 8.8, 7.6 and 6.6 ng/L Going by Wi…

> I bring this up because of the right wing fear of the "feminization of men." > Where the right wing ideology on this is strongest (US perhaps?) I can’t imagine the confusion that would lead someone to conclude that “feminization of men” is a “right wing fear” that is perhaps “strongest” in the US? The US has among the loosest gender norms of any place in the world, including a number of European countries. In the o…

I would say this is more about gender roles than gender norms, particularly women’s place in social status / power hierarchy.

It is a fact our increasingly connected world favors some traits that have been traditionally thought of as feminine, such as high emotional intelligence, openness, and agreeableness; and people are adapting. All this anxiety about feminization of men - and masculinization of women - is just useless gnashing of teeth from those who are having trouble coping with rapid change brought on by technological advancement.

Re: Review of 17α-ethynylestradiol in water across 32 countries: Estrogenic effects

#122

Post by zionic »

ben_w wrote: post #22
treeman79 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

One day a few years ago, just as I reached my flat, a young child looked at me, turned to their mother and said “Mommy, mommy, is that a boy or a girl?”, because my combination pony tail and facial hair confused them. A few grown men have had the same problem, beginning a wolf-whistle when they saw me from behind only to abort part way through as they saw the front of my face.

Wolves don’t whistle though, at least cat’s actually call.

I get what you’re trying to do, but come on.

Re: Review of 17α-ethynylestradiol in water across 32 countries: Estrogenic effects

#123

Post by mancerayder »

panarky wrote: post #110
pure_simplicity wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dropping testosterone levels and decreasing sperm quality are not a "right wing fear", but a scientific fact, and that should concern everyone: right and left wing, men and women. Also, to look at this 1 compound in isolation and downplay the significance of it, without considering the cumulative and synergistic effects of all the other xeno estrogens we are exposed to on a daily basis is irresponsible.

> not a "right wing fear", but a scientific fact Of course it's both, with the kernel of scientific fact being hyped and exaggerated by the right. It's important to call this out so people can evaluate whether the discussion is in good faith or if it's part of an information operation.

No, what's important is the truth or falsehood of a given claim. To attack the messenger, or to put focus on the messenger, is a dangerous path that leads to the deep divides we see, where reality seems just subjective to entire groups of people. It also contributes to a society more concerned about whether a fact is convenient or not for one's belief system, as opposed to an inquiry by a hungry mind which seeks to understand the world as-is (an ideal we should be fostering as intelligent people, for the good of society).

This is more religious-inspired thinking than protecting the world from what you call an information operation. Ironically those institutions do the same thing in reverse (omitting or cherry picking facts to fit narrative).

Re: Review of 17α-ethynylestradiol in water across 32 countries: Estrogenic effects

#124

Post by rayiner »

pfisherman wrote: post #121
rayiner wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I bring this up because of the right wing fear of the "feminization of men." > Where the right wing ideology on this is strongest (US perhaps?) I can’t imagine the confusion that would lead someone to conclude that “feminization of men” is a “right wing fear” that is perhaps “strongest” in the US? The US has among the loosest gender norms of any place in the world, including a number of European countries. In the o…

I would say this is more about gender roles than gender norms, particularly women’s place in social status / power hierarchy. It is a fact our increasingly connected world favors some traits that have been traditionally thought of as feminine, such as high emotional intelligence, openness, and agreeableness; and people are adapting. All this anxiety about feminization of men - and masculinization of women - is just u…

I agree with you. What I’m perplexed by is this implication that the US isn’t one of the handful of countries leading the charge on breaking down gender roles and norms. (In large part because the economic changes you speak of haven’t reached other countries. Gender roles driven by the physical demands of subsistence agriculture are still the reality of life for most people.) As if folks in Asia and Africa are sitting around reading Judith Butler.

Re: Review of 17α-ethynylestradiol in water across 32 countries: Estrogenic effects

#125

Post by iknownothow »

baldisbasics wrote: post #94
zackmorris wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's interesting, which part of the US is it, and does anyone have hard evidence of that trend? Only one datapoint, but: the outer half of my eyebrows fell out in 2018 just before my digestive issues flared up and I burned out in the spring of 2019. I wondered if maybe radiation from Fukushima affected my thyroid, since radiation levels in southern Idaho were 80 times normal before they quit reporting them. I've si…

It was everyone I know in Indiana and South Carolina, so it appears to have been wide spread. Some were spared, but this was notably pre-COVID. I wouldn't be surprised if it isn't directly the chemical mentioned in this study, but a multifactor issue. My key point is that out hunch was "what could be leaking into the water or food supply to cause this?" I always leaned more toward the microplastic theory, but that br…

I just checked Google trends for the phrase "hair loss" localized to South Carolina. The graph doesn't point to any trend that starts in 2018 as far as I can tell. I could be wrong.

UPDATE: I checked for "hair loss" localized to the United States on Google trends. There appears to be an upward trend after 2015. I am not drawing any conclusions, just wanted to point that out.

Re: Review of 17α-ethynylestradiol in water across 32 countries: Estrogenic effects

#127

Post by connicpu »

bergenty wrote: post #107
TazeTSchnitzel wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's also worth bearing in mind that œstradiol is not some exclusively “female” hormone: cis men have it in their blood too, just at a lower concentration. In fact, without it, males are infertile!

Sure but when you’re talking about order of magnitude differences there is a clear delineation and the fear is not unwarranted.

The normal levels are closer then you think. The exact numbers differ depending on what lab you ask, but the normal male range of estradiol in the blood is around 15-55 pg/mL, while the normal healthy female level can vary from 70-500 pg/mL depending on the current stage of the menstrual cycle. Normally that doesn't matter though as most of estradiol's effects are overridden by an overwhelming amount of testosterone

Re: Review of 17α-ethynylestradiol in water across 32 countries: Estrogenic effects

#129

Post by driverdan »

mancerayder wrote: post #126

Am I the only lunatic that drinks almost exclusively bottled water? I've done so since I was a child.

If you're worried about water quality you're much better off drinking filtered tap water. Most bottled water is just municipal water with extra trash.

Re: Review of 17α-ethynylestradiol in water across 32 countries: Estrogenic effects

#130

Post by teslabox »

TazeTSchnitzel wrote: post #16
marricks wrote: post #8

I'm concerned this is making numbers here because of fear mongers so I want to run the numbers a bit to > The top 10 countries ranked in the order of high to low average EE2 concentration in surface water, were Vietnam, Cambodia, China, Laos, Brazil, Argentina, Kuwait, Thailand, Indonesia and Portugal, with the respective mean concentrations of 27.7, 22.1, 21.5, 21.1, 13.6, 9.6, 9.5, 8.8, 7.6 and 6.6 ng/L Going by Wi…

I think it's also worth bearing in mind that œstradiol is not some exclusively “female” hormone: cis men have it in their blood too, just at a lower concentration. In fact, without it, males are infertile!

Estrogen is a 'stress hormone' that needs to be balanced with anti-stress hormones for optimal health.

All the steroids in the body are made from cholesterol. The term is steroidogenesis: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steroid#Steroidogenesis

Estrogen is at the end of the steroidogenesis pathway. It's a stress hormone. In the menstrual cycle, estrogen tells the uterine lining to 'swell and divide'. Fertile women are protected from their higher estrogen levels by their high levels of Progesterone USP during the luteal phase of their menstrual cycle. When women reach menopause, their heart attack numbers rapidly reach men's heart attack numbers.

Adipose tissue has a lot of the aromatase enzyme [0], which converts testosterone to estrogen. People with more adipose tissue lose their testosterone by converting it to estrogen. The heart of both genders concentrates testosterone.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aromatase

[1] Obesity, estrogens and adipose tissue dysfunction – implications for pulmonary arterial hypertension - https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/20458940209520...

I sold a progesterone supplement on Amazon years ago... My best customer was "Billie", who I suspect was MTF and was using progesterone USP to balance his estrogen treatments. I referred him to other manufacturers when he noticed my supplement was no longer available.

Pregnenolone is a useful supplement for balancing the steroid system: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steroid#/media/File:Steroidoge...

(edit: added [1])

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