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How the Plummeting Price of Cocaine Fueled the Nationwide Drop in Violent Crime

theatlanticcities.com

11–20 of 107 posts

Re: How the Plummeting Price of Cocaine Fueled the Nationwide Drop in Violent Crime

#11
post #3

In other words, high drug prices give money to gangs. Also, some drugs inherently encourage large gangs - stuff like heroin and cocaine has offshore production, which requires complicated supply chains with large (and therefore violent) gangs. As deplorable as meth cookers are, their small scale and low margins mean they only cause limited damage. Since they work alone, they don't need to shoot disloyal gang members,…

Meth production tends to change surrounding the availability of ephedrine and pseudoephedrine:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/meth/etc/cron.html

(The gist is that large labs tend to spring up whenever they find a bulk source for either chemical and then go away when that bulk source is eliminated)

Re: How the Plummeting Price of Cocaine Fueled the Nationwide Drop in Violent Crime

#12
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you think would happen to a Mexican police officer and his family if he tried to simply "just do his job"? There is a reason the police are the ones wearing ski masks down there: http://si.wsj.net/public/resources/images/WO-AG531_MEXICO_G_...

How did it get to this level? We have criminal gangs in the US and the police here don't have to worry about that. It's mostly because of our justice system and the fact that you can't buy off any cop with some cash.

There are a lot of factors that have gone into this, including but not limited to:

1) "American sized" amounts of money being dumped into a "Mexico sized" economy.

2) (related to the above) The increased utility of any bribe to somebody living in Mexico. (we see this phenomenon in developing nations across the world^).

3) Comparative resources available to the police forces.

4) Pressure from the US to overextend the Mexican police force.

etc.

To boil this all down to "the police aren't doing their jobs" is a huge mistake.

EDIT: ^Apologies, it seems Mexico is now considered a "newly industrialized nation", as of 2011. I don't think this effects my point however.

Re: How the Plummeting Price of Cocaine Fueled the Nationwide Drop in Violent Crime

#14
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you think would happen to a Mexican police officer and his family if he tried to simply "just do his job"? There is a reason the police are the ones wearing ski masks down there: http://si.wsj.net/public/resources/images/WO-AG531_MEXICO_G_...

How did it get to this level? We have criminal gangs in the US and the police here don't have to worry about that. It's mostly because of our justice system and the fact that you can't buy off any cop with some cash.

"2) (related to the above) The increased tility of any brbe to somebody living in Mexico. (we see this phenomenon in developing nations across the world)."

Which is what I said. The reason the US isn't third-world is because most cops don't accept bribes. This sort of behavior infects society as a whole.

"3) Comparative resources available to the police forces."

Why are they out of resources? We need to figure things out if we ever want to stop it.

"4) Pressure from the US to overextend the Mexican police force."

It's because the violence and crime is spilling over to the US side of things. If they were stopping these guys, I don't think we would need to overextend anything. Does the US over-extend Canada's police force?

"To boil this all down to "the police aren't doing their jobs" is a huge mistake."

The police aren't doing their job because of a systematic problem of corruption. So I suppose it's just a symptom of a greater problem, but it still doesn't change the fact that there is a huge corruption problem with the Mexican police.

Re: How the Plummeting Price of Cocaine Fueled the Nationwide Drop in Violent Crime

#15
post #5

What about the increase in corruption in Mexico? An increase in corruption means more criminals can have drug businesses without being stopped by the cops. So, when more drug businesses pop-up, there will be less of a monopoly on the supply and the cost will go down over time. It's the same as any normal business. Even if we legalized all drugs tomorrow, it won't stop the violence. If the Mexican police were actually…

What do you think would happen to a Mexican police officer and his family if he tried to simply "just do his job"? There is a reason the police are the ones wearing ski masks down there: http://si.wsj.net/public/resources/images/WO-AG531_MEXICO_G_...

I'm shocked at the number of closed-minded members of the HN community. If the answer to the violence in Mexico isn't: "let's legalize all drugs!", I get down voted.

I wasn't a troll and explained my points, yet nobody wants to listen. It's sad. It's becoming more and more difficult to fight this mentality.

I thought this was a community of intelligent people, yet I'm beginning to realize that this just isn't the case anymore.

Re: How the Plummeting Price of Cocaine Fueled the Nationwide Drop in Violent Crime

#16
post #4

I remember writing a report on the failure of the war on drugs...and this was 13 some years ago when I was in junior high. Sad to see drug policies still haven't changed much since then.

It hasn't changed much because it is working great for a very well connected sub-set of our society.

Who are those people? Politicians? (serious question)

Re: How the Plummeting Price of Cocaine Fueled the Nationwide Drop in Violent Crime

#17
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you think would happen to a Mexican police officer and his family if he tried to simply "just do his job"? There is a reason the police are the ones wearing ski masks down there: http://si.wsj.net/public/resources/images/WO-AG531_MEXICO_G_...

I'm shocked at the number of closed-minded members of the HN community. If the answer to the violence in Mexico isn't: "let's legalize all drugs!", I get down voted. I wasn't a troll and explained my points, yet nobody wants to listen. It's sad. It's becoming more and more difficult to fight this mentality. I thought this was a community of intelligent people, yet I'm beginning to realize that this just isn't the cas…

Troll or not, I think your post is being downvoted, at least in part, because of the gaping logical chasm you constructed. It may help if you explain exactly how falling cocaine prices would increase corruption in Mexico.

Re: How the Plummeting Price of Cocaine Fueled the Nationwide Drop in Violent Crime

#18
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you think would happen to a Mexican police officer and his family if he tried to simply "just do his job"? There is a reason the police are the ones wearing ski masks down there: http://si.wsj.net/public/resources/images/WO-AG531_MEXICO_G_...

I'm shocked at the number of closed-minded members of the HN community. If the answer to the violence in Mexico isn't: "let's legalize all drugs!", I get down voted. I wasn't a troll and explained my points, yet nobody wants to listen. It's sad. It's becoming more and more difficult to fight this mentality. I thought this was a community of intelligent people, yet I'm beginning to realize that this just isn't the cas…

FWIW, I don't think you're right, but that your point presents a reasonable argument, and thus shouldn't be downvoted.

As to the police doing their jobs, you have to keep in mind that the drug organizations in Mexico columbia are heavily armed, more so than the local police. The Zetas for example, rose to power after being founded by Mexican special forces, a group analagous to our Green Berets. When you combine this strong knowledge of tactical warfare with a callous ruthlessness, they're not so easy to just shut down.

They are also very well financed. The drug gangs in the U.S are a joke compared to Mexico. They can't even be put in the same league. Drug gangs in the U.S. are like retail corner shops. Drug organizations in Mexico are like Walmarts, supplying these corner shops.

So in effect you have drug organizations which are more powerful than in the U.S. and a law enforcement system which is weaker than the U.S. Law enforcement couldn't easily stamp out these organizations (without HEAVY loss of life) even if corruption weren't an issue.

Re: How the Plummeting Price of Cocaine Fueled the Nationwide Drop in Violent Crime

#19
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It hasn't changed much because it is working great for a very well connected sub-set of our society.

Who are those people? Politicians? (serious question)

One possibility: big financial institutions. Michael Rupert has done a lot of work in this area. IIRC, the illicit drug trade is the world's largest commodity market -- bigger than oil. That money has to go somewhere, and wherever it goes it is bound to be massively influential. Rupert argues that the links to big financial institutions are often quite clear, and he backs up his arguments with fairly prodigious research.

Re: How the Plummeting Price of Cocaine Fueled the Nationwide Drop in Violent Crime

#20
post #14
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How did it get to this level? We have criminal gangs in the US and the police here don't have to worry about that. It's mostly because of our justice system and the fact that you can't buy off any cop with some cash.

"2) (related to the above) The increased tility of any brbe to somebody living in Mexico. (we see this phenomenon in developing nations across the world)." Which is what I said. The reason the US isn't third-world is because most cops don't accept bribes. This sort of behavior infects society as a whole. "3) Comparative resources available to the police forces." Why are they out of resources? We need to figure things…

"Which is what I said. The reason the US isn't third-world is because most cops don't accept bribes."

No. You said this: "The police aren't doing their job", which is what I particularly object to. They are doing it as well as anybody could reasonably be expected to.

And before you object to that 'reasonable' qualification, ponder the following: Somebody comes up to you and offers you enough money to pay off a good deal of your debt. But they don't stop there, they give you a choice! You can either accept this money, and go about your business, or you can decline this money, they will cut off your head, rape your wife, then cut off her's too.

Whatever you think you might do here, you cannot reasonably expect people to turn down the bribe.

"Why are they out of resources?"

Well that is really quite simple. Look up the amount of money the US spends on their "enforcement" and the answer should become clear.

"It's because the violence and crime is spilling over to the US side of things."

Look up the history of drug laws sometime. The laws predate the violence.

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