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I miss the programmable web (2021)

matt-rickard.com

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Re: I miss the programmable web (2021)

#121

Post by jnovek »

5350-uiop-1130 wrote: post #76
blauditore wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you build web pages without the whole JS frameworks and Node circus, they are pretty durable. Those helpers were invented because people started to build empires (complex applications) on sand (the web), so they are pretty useful for larger projects, but simple websites can still be easily built with plain HTML/CSS/JS.

yeah but there is no value, personally in building projects like that anymore, you can not use them in your portfolio or to progress your career - i was going to build a personal site, but realised it would probably act as more of a hindrance to me, because potential clients/employers would see that it was not using latest new js fad. if it was up to me i would never touch those things, but that's what the market has…

I’d say the opposite in my experience when I’ve been a hiring manager.

I prefer candidates who show that they understand their fundamentals, their primary domain and can show that they grow and adapt easily. The current hot technology is ephemeral and can be learned on the job by a competent engineer.

That said, my background is startups so I don’t know what larger companies expect.

Re: I miss the programmable web (2021)

#122

Post by Ntrails »

superkuh wrote: post #112
5350-uiop-1130 wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yeah but there is no value, personally in building projects like that anymore, you can not use them in your portfolio or to progress your career - i was going to build a personal site, but realised it would probably act as more of a hindrance to me, because potential clients/employers would see that it was not using latest new js fad. if it was up to me i would never touch those things, but that's what the market has…

If the only reason you build websites is to get paid then you're part of the problem. Separate your personal and professional lives. Or do you not enjoy building on the web for fun?

> If the only reason you build websites is to get paid then you're part of the problem.

This is absurd. I write code for a living, I enjoy solving problems and that is part of my job.

I do not write code in my free time. I play video games, go hiking or go to the beach and maybe read a book with dragons in.

That doesn't make me a problem. My job is not my life. Honestly it shouldn't be, it is not healthy imo

Re: I miss the programmable web (2021)

#123

Post by systems_glitch »

5350-uiop-1130 wrote: post #76
blauditore wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you build web pages without the whole JS frameworks and Node circus, they are pretty durable. Those helpers were invented because people started to build empires (complex applications) on sand (the web), so they are pretty useful for larger projects, but simple websites can still be easily built with plain HTML/CSS/JS.

yeah but there is no value, personally in building projects like that anymore, you can not use them in your portfolio or to progress your career - i was going to build a personal site, but realised it would probably act as more of a hindrance to me, because potential clients/employers would see that it was not using latest new js fad. if it was up to me i would never touch those things, but that's what the market has…

It's OK to do a thing because you wish to, and not because it might advance your career one day.

Re: I miss the programmable web (2021)

#124

Post by redox99 »

knighthack wrote: post #84
5350-uiop-1130 wrote: post #55

I miss the "immediate web". Being able to work on simple things without feeling like they are useless, pointless or perceptibly outdated. Now it's install node, install git, install npm, install a gazillion packages, run localhost then hope everything works. Build command, clean command, eject commands, deploy command, pre processors, post processers, documentations full of so much jargon that i feel burnt out lookin…

I remember the first time I heard the word "tree shaking" for CSS. ...I genuinely wondered what tree was involved. Took a Google search before I understood that it was industry jargon, which meant this: to reduce/minify code. There are many similarly opaque things in the world of web-development.

Imagine you have a root (let's say your index webpage). Then you can build a tree of what is used by what. So if you have a CSS classname that is used by C (C being an HTML element, component, whatever) and C is used by B, but B is not used by A (the root) then it's shaken (removed) and "falls" because it's not connected to the root.

Basically remove everything not connected to the root.

Re: I miss the programmable web (2021)

#125

Post by wslh »

5350-uiop-1130 wrote: post #55

I miss the "immediate web". Being able to work on simple things without feeling like they are useless, pointless or perceptibly outdated. Now it's install node, install git, install npm, install a gazillion packages, run localhost then hope everything works. Build command, clean command, eject commands, deploy command, pre processors, post processers, documentations full of so much jargon that i feel burnt out lookin…

Don't forget containerization: instead of just downloading sources, build them and run you need to think all the time outside the core problem.

I likte to think about the the term development UX in contrast of end-user/mass UXs.

Re: I miss the programmable web (2021)

#126

Post by agentwiggles »

5350-uiop-1130 wrote: post #76
blauditore wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you build web pages without the whole JS frameworks and Node circus, they are pretty durable. Those helpers were invented because people started to build empires (complex applications) on sand (the web), so they are pretty useful for larger projects, but simple websites can still be easily built with plain HTML/CSS/JS.

yeah but there is no value, personally in building projects like that anymore, you can not use them in your portfolio or to progress your career - i was going to build a personal site, but realised it would probably act as more of a hindrance to me, because potential clients/employers would see that it was not using latest new js fad. if it was up to me i would never touch those things, but that's what the market has…

People building for the fun of it with simple tools is what made the old school web that so many HN readers are nostalgic for.

These days it feels like everyone is constantly looking for an angle, feeling like nothing is worth doing if it can't be monetized and turned into content. Fuck's sake, people can't even go _fishing_ without strapping up with a GoPro and trying to sell their favorite tackle.

Be punk rock. Go do something for the joy of it. Go learn a language that no one will ever pay you to write. You have a day job to get paid. Why worry about it for what you do for fun?

Re: I miss the programmable web (2021)

#127

Post by beej71 »

5350-uiop-1130 wrote: post #55

I miss the "immediate web". Being able to work on simple things without feeling like they are useless, pointless or perceptibly outdated. Now it's install node, install git, install npm, install a gazillion packages, run localhost then hope everything works. Build command, clean command, eject commands, deploy command, pre processors, post processers, documentations full of so much jargon that i feel burnt out lookin…

> not built on a stack of fickle dependencies, fads and ever increasing complexity.

Every dependency is a benefit and a liability. It's been interesting to watch this ecosystem grow over the past decade as we collectively explore how much liability we're willing to accept.

Re: I miss the programmable web (2021)

#128

Post by Jetrel »

splintercell wrote: post #88
knighthack wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember the first time I heard the word "tree shaking" for CSS. ...I genuinely wondered what tree was involved. Took a Google search before I understood that it was industry jargon, which meant this: to reduce/minify code. There are many similarly opaque things in the world of web-development.

Tree shaking doesn’t mean to minify the code but remove the CSS classes from the payload which are not being used anywhere. Proper term is dead code elimination (DCE).

To help clarify for the person you're replying to; minification could be considered to only mean: taking an interpreted language like JS, and essentially compressing the text of the code by doing transformations to it that don't change the semantic meaning of the code. Swapping out long variable/function names with short, computer-generated single(ish)-letter names. Removing whitespace.

Much of this was because real compression methods like zip simply weren't available during early decades of web development.

Obviously, if shrinking the code size is desirable, and you were building a library that did minification, you'd want to move on to also adding other, more dangerous changes that could change the meaning of the code, like removing unused CSS classes, doing DCE on javascript, etc, etc.

--

Since programming is a giant, decentralized soup of autodidacts, there's no "word of god" authority that can really say "this is the one true name of something". It's mostly just lingo that passes in and out of various communities, and a lot of times communities (as you're seeing in splintercell's comment) try to helpfully match themselves up and standardize so it doesn't degenerate into pure chaos.

Re: I miss the programmable web (2021)

#129

Post by tarsinge »

5350-uiop-1130 wrote: post #55

I miss the "immediate web". Being able to work on simple things without feeling like they are useless, pointless or perceptibly outdated. Now it's install node, install git, install npm, install a gazillion packages, run localhost then hope everything works. Build command, clean command, eject commands, deploy command, pre processors, post processers, documentations full of so much jargon that i feel burnt out lookin…

I got so tired repeating this and trying to convince others that just I created my own agency. Clients are happy, I’m happier, so I guess we are not totally crazy.

Re: I miss the programmable web (2021)

#130

Post by LamaOfRuin »

Kye wrote: post #95
pjerem wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They aren’t dead but with more and more build systems that obfuscate everything in the page, including CSS classes and IDs, it’s sometimes hard to do something really useful.

There were these things called API spies back in the VB6 days that would figure out the appropriate way to refer to whatever you clicked. The one from PatorJK would even produce code to do things to it from downloadable templates. It's still around: https://patorjk.com/blog/software/ I wonder why no one ever made something like this for the web.

It is built into every browser's dev tools, but the point GP was making is that the way many websites are built now means that for an external observer, the way you refer to an element changes with every reload, or with every new build (which may happen at any time and frequently for actively developed sites).
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