Dear startups: I hate subscription services (2021) • Hacker News Board

Re: Dear startups: I hate subscription services (2021)

#131

Post by microtonal » Sat, Jul 30, 2022, 11:41 AM UTC

Joeri wrote: post #103

xg15 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But our businesses are viable as subscription services, and not as one-off or ad-hoc puchase models. Doesn't explain businesses that had been per-purchase for a long time and are now still switching to subscriptions though. (E.g. photoshop, jetbrains...)

Software used to require little maintenance work. You would buy your software and run it without a single byte changed for 5 or 10 years, and then buy a new version. This worked because OS updates were rare, and everything was local and file-based. In the modern era though software requires continuous maintenance, because we expect our data to move freely between all our devices and the cloud, because operating syste…

I fully agree with your JetBrains point. I use Rust and CLion and they have to continually adapt to new Rust features, etc. I happily pay for my JetBrains All Products Packs and their model is better than most subscriptions, since you get to keep versions that were released 12 months before the end of you subscription.

However, there are a bazillion other applications -- password managers, note taking applications, Git clients, you name it, for which this is not true. I made a very niche-specific GUI application in 2010-2012 (a search application for Dutch treebanks), written with Qt. It runs on Windows, macOS, and Linux. It's effectively abandonware or just done (depending on your perspective). I have released updates since then to make sure it keeps running on the latest OS versions. It takes me, maybe 2-4 hours per year? (Typically replacing some deprecated Qt APIs and I there was one libxml2 API change.)

I think a lot of software companies just want to get on the gravy train. Usually, their yearly price is close to what a perpetual license used to cost. So if you successfully switch to a subscription model, you have much more income than before.

The primarily loser here is the user. You are poorer after an application switches to a subscription model. If a company goes bankrupt or decides to pull the plug, better hope that your data is not in a proprietary format (while I can still run some old WordStar in DOSBox and open old files).

Re: Dear startups: I hate subscription services (2021)

#132

Post by SQueeeeeL » Sat, Jul 30, 2022, 11:41 AM UTC

safety1st wrote: post #118

ChildOfChaos wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed, it's usually nothing to do with the fact they weren't viable before, it's just that subscriptions are more profitable. With cost of living crisis and such, soon enough though it won't be able to last. People are already cancelling one of the biggest main subscriptions they have (netflix). Also I fear this is really changing society. Many years ago, as you got older you got into a better place in life because…

It's certainly cause for concern but I would say the major change over the years has been that in addition to buying good and reliable things that last (and maybe are expensive), you can also buy cheap crappy stuff that breaks down. To use headphones as an example you can still go get a pair of wired Sony headphones that will have great sound and last for a decade for $50. I just did. (Or you can spend more and get e…

> But a lot of this I feel is just the younger generations having voracious consumer appetites (and a lot of it is driven by a heightened sense of needing to keep up, look good on Instagram etc. which is a whole other can of worms).

I think a big part of this is just how much better advertising has gotten, basically cementing consumer goods as required to the average person. Add on to that how good high quality laptops are specialized goods for those who spend their lives obsessed with tech (i.e. the framework laptop). If you walk into Walmart or BestBuy, your options will be severely limited to products which aren't built to last. I can't blame anyone for feeling confused when it comes to which products to buy.

Re: Dear startups: I hate subscription services (2021)

#133

Post by FranzFerdiNaN » Sat, Jul 30, 2022, 11:43 AM UTC

safety1st wrote: post #118

ChildOfChaos wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed, it's usually nothing to do with the fact they weren't viable before, it's just that subscriptions are more profitable. With cost of living crisis and such, soon enough though it won't be able to last. People are already cancelling one of the biggest main subscriptions they have (netflix). Also I fear this is really changing society. Many years ago, as you got older you got into a better place in life because…

It's certainly cause for concern but I would say the major change over the years has been that in addition to buying good and reliable things that last (and maybe are expensive), you can also buy cheap crappy stuff that breaks down. To use headphones as an example you can still go get a pair of wired Sony headphones that will have great sound and last for a decade for $50. I just did. (Or you can spend more and get e…

Most stuff has significantly degraded in build quality, from clothing to tools to electronics. Planned obsolescence is real. So maybe it’s not the youths and their bad morals, but people getting used to having to replace shit often, or simply not knowing how to find the items that do last longer.

Also, capitalism can’t help but lower the quality of products as a way to increase numbers sold. It’s inherent to the system. Companies would be insane to produce for example a phone that lasts 15 years, it would cut into their profit marges.

Re: Dear startups: I hate subscription services (2021)

#134

Post by mongol » Sat, Jul 30, 2022, 11:43 AM UTC

alanfranz wrote: post #104

One thing the article seems to miss out: price. Some subscriptions are horribly expensive. $8/month for something I’d be happy to pay $10/year. That’s the real problem. A lot of services come out at $50/$60 per year with minimal improvements over an OSS or ad-supported tool.

Very good point. I think paying for something useful let's say 5 USD one month when you use it is quite alright. But then go four months when you don't use it at all and pay 20 USD for that privilege is harder to motivate. But on the other hand, if the price was 1 USD / month it would not be such a big deal for those months, if it turns out you use it a few times per year.

Re: Dear startups: I hate subscription services (2021)

#135

Post by nkrisc » Sat, Jul 30, 2022, 11:44 AM UTC

Zak wrote: post #128

jwr wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That sounds like a cynical take, but is actually close to the truth. The usual take is that businesses are "greedy" and subscription models are "lucrative". The word I'd rather use is "sustainable". Maintaining software (any software) is an ongoing process, not a one-time effort. It needs to be paid for on an ongoing basis. Even a tiny phone app needs regular maintenance work just to stay current with OS and tools de…

> The usual take is that businesses are "greedy" and subscription models are "lucrative". "Greedy" as a criticism of a for-profit business makes about as much sense as "predatory" does as a criticism of a cat.

It does make a lot of sense actually. Because cats are predatory, we need to regulate our domestic cat population by keeping them indoors, otherwise their predatory nature will destroy local populations of birds and other animals.

So a for-profit business is greedy by nature, so we need to regulate its natural impulses since it can’t control them itself, much like the cat.

Re: Dear startups: I hate subscription services (2021)

#136

Post by sorrychuck » Sat, Jul 30, 2022, 11:46 AM UTC

yourMadness wrote: post #88

gordaco wrote: post #67

I'm a very, very firm believer on not paying for "subscription" to software. New content, I can understand (I spend about 40€ monthly on several Patreons, mostly comic artists; and I have a couple news subscriptions as well), although I still hate music/tv subscriptions and I don't want Netflix, Spotify or whatever. But for software, no matter how useful it is , I just refuse to choose between an unbounded price and…

Would you use a service that converts subscriptions into one time purchases at 20x the yearly subscription cost?

Is this a thing you’ve seen? Really cool idea!

I doubt many would actually use it because complainers on HN aren’t average users, and the number of months you’d have to prepay would likely be quite high to actually make it make sense for the businesses involved.

But still, if you could make a business reselling monthly subs as 1-off purchases, it would be pretty dang cool!

Re: Dear startups: I hate subscription services (2021)

#137

Post by feanaro » Sat, Jul 30, 2022, 11:47 AM UTC

ChildOfChaos wrote: post #50

xg15 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But our businesses are viable as subscription services, and not as one-off or ad-hoc puchase models. Doesn't explain businesses that had been per-purchase for a long time and are now still switching to subscriptions though. (E.g. photoshop, jetbrains...)

Agreed, it's usually nothing to do with the fact they weren't viable before, it's just that subscriptions are more profitable. With cost of living crisis and such, soon enough though it won't be able to last. People are already cancelling one of the biggest main subscriptions they have (netflix). Also I fear this is really changing society. Many years ago, as you got older you got into a better place in life because…

What happens is that you'll have to use less stuff and learn to be content with it.

What this means for the endless, exponential "consumer" ideology is that it isn't sustainable in the long run. This should be blindingly obvious but for some reason many people weren't or aren't seeing it.

Re: Dear startups: I hate subscription services (2021)

#138

Post by dzikimarian » Sat, Jul 30, 2022, 11:47 AM UTC

chunkyguy wrote: post #125

xg15 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about good old "pay for it once, then own it"?

And who pays for the maintenance and bug fixes? Softwares can't sell like hardwares. When you buy a toaster for example, after the warranty expires you pay for every time you take it out for repairing. With softwares customers expect a life time of warranty, bug fixes and improvements.

I will gladly pay for the new version, when they amount to something I care about. Most of them isn't worth it - I would rather accept some minor bugs.

Jetbrains has very good model in that regard. Hope they will not ruin it (new pricing for self hosted Spaces is bit concerning).

Re: Dear startups: I hate subscription services (2021)

#139

Post by webmobdev » Sat, Jul 30, 2022, 11:47 AM UTC

mattjenner wrote: post #21

Dear innovative people: think of a better model. 1. Free = problematic with the lack of money 2. Freemium = looks good if the balance is right 3. Ads = Mostly works but the model is flawed and skewed 4. Subscription = Love/Hate currently trendy but too relied on 5. Pay-what-you-can = Fans provide the service for everyone 6. Premium only = Only what it's worth, when it's worth 7. Enterprise = S'ok because my company/o…

Let me add some more fuel to the debate - How can software-as-a-service be regulated in a way that it balances consumer rights and the rights of a business? Perhaps:

1. Every SaaS business should be compelled to offer both a subscription price and perpetual license at a fixed price.

2. The fixed price of a perpetual license should not be more than 10x or 20x (?) of the monthly subscription price.

3. If a user has opted for subscription payment, they should get a perpetual licence after they have paid a certain subscription amount over a period that is not more than 2x or 3x of the fixed price of the perpetual license.

4. SaaS businesses should not be allowed to hold users data hostage if the user decides to end the subscription. (This can be tricky if the data is in some proprietary format).

5. As much as possible, the SaaS should be able to run offline on a user's computer without needing to offload computing to servers.

Ofcourse, most of the above are practical only for software that you can actually run on your computer and don't require massive computing powers from data centers that some services may need. But then again, that's exactly the kind of software that don't need to be SaaS at all in the first place, as the article too points out.

Re: Dear startups: I hate subscription services (2021)

#140

Post by horsawlarway » Sat, Jul 30, 2022, 11:50 AM UTC

chunkyguy wrote: post #125

xg15 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about good old "pay for it once, then own it"?

And who pays for the maintenance and bug fixes? Softwares can't sell like hardwares. When you buy a toaster for example, after the warranty expires you pay for every time you take it out for repairing. With softwares customers expect a life time of warranty, bug fixes and improvements.

The customer pays when a feature they actually care about breaks, and they upgrade.

Sell it as is, or with a very short one year support window. Exactly like all sorts of companies used to profitably do until they realized they could extract more value for the same work with a subscription.

Rent-seeking in the most literal form...