Build your own web framework • Hacker News Board

Re: Build your own web framework

#11

Post by your_username » Fri, Jul 29, 2022, 4:44 PM UTC

tofuahdude wrote: post #8

moojd wrote: post #5

This is a nice overview of modern front-end development but I'm constantly disappointed with what 'web framework' means in node-land. None of these things are strictly necessary when building a web app but authz/authn, user management, databases, server-side logic vs client-side logic, are pretty much always needed. When I see the phrase 'web framework' these are the things I am interested in seeing and they all seem…

Its pretty hard to trust a lot of the eng content on the web right now; so much blogspam, self promo stuff from frankly underqualified people who are trying to build up a profile to get hired. Somehow I still don't feel that way about StackOverflow. Google and random results though... yikes.

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Re: Build your own web framework

#12

Post by Kerrick » Fri, Jul 29, 2022, 4:46 PM UTC

moojd wrote: post #5

This is a nice overview of modern front-end development but I'm constantly disappointed with what 'web framework' means in node-land. None of these things are strictly necessary when building a web app but authz/authn, user management, databases, server-side logic vs client-side logic, are pretty much always needed. When I see the phrase 'web framework' these are the things I am interested in seeing and they all seem…

The only framework of that scale and quality I’ve found in node-land is Adonis [0]. It’s why I chose Adonis 5 for my latest product—it needed to be built in JS or TypeScript but I wanted the “batteries included” feel of Laravel or Rails.

[0]: https://adonisjs.com/

Re: Build your own web framework

#13

Post by koluna » Fri, Jul 29, 2022, 4:47 PM UTC

The more I see these announcements, the more I wonder - what is the appeal of something like Vercel and the likes? On the surface it seems like AWS/GCP/Azure/whichever big cloud provider can replicate literally everything they build within their infrastructure quite easily. Why host your core infra in a BigCo cloud and then the site on Vercel?

Re: Build your own web framework

#14

Post by leerob » Fri, Jul 29, 2022, 4:51 PM UTC

upupandup wrote: post #4

not sure how this differs with AWS, you can do more at less cost than Vercel

AWS offers a set of primitives, not frameworks. These low-level primitives can be combined to build anything you want. Vercel's Build Output API[1] is a level of abstraction higher.

Consider Image Optimization. In this post, there's a `/_vercel/image` URL made available to send an image and return it compressed with a format like `.webp`, if possible based on the browser.

With AWS, this would be a combination of S3 (store images), Lambda (compute the image transformations), Cloudfront (CDN), and Route53 (DNS). With the Build Output API, the entire infrastructure is defined by a JSON object (similar to Terraform). I do think the AWS CDK and Copilot[2] are making infra-as-code easier, but infra-as-filesystem[3] is an interesting twist.

[1]: https://vercel.com/blog/build-output-api

[2]: https://aws.github.io/copilot-cli/

[3]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32192498

Re: Build your own web framework

#15

Post by ilrwbwrkhv » Fri, Jul 29, 2022, 4:54 PM UTC

Kerrick wrote: post #12

moojd wrote: post #5

This is a nice overview of modern front-end development but I'm constantly disappointed with what 'web framework' means in node-land. None of these things are strictly necessary when building a web app but authz/authn, user management, databases, server-side logic vs client-side logic, are pretty much always needed. When I see the phrase 'web framework' these are the things I am interested in seeing and they all seem…

The only framework of that scale and quality I’ve found in node-land is Adonis [0]. It’s why I chose Adonis 5 for my latest product—it needed to be built in JS or TypeScript but I wanted the “batteries included” feel of Laravel or Rails. [0]: https://adonisjs.com/

Unfortunately they just directly copy laravel line by line when I had last seen it. It doesn't use the strengths of JavaScript as much.

Re: Build your own web framework

#16

Post by DanHulton » Fri, Jul 29, 2022, 4:58 PM UTC

moojd wrote: post #5

This is a nice overview of modern front-end development but I'm constantly disappointed with what 'web framework' means in node-land. None of these things are strictly necessary when building a web app but authz/authn, user management, databases, server-side logic vs client-side logic, are pretty much always needed. When I see the phrase 'web framework' these are the things I am interested in seeing and they all seem…

This is largely why I built Nodewood [1]. Every time I wanted to start a new project, almost always a SaaS idea, I'd skip over the "boring stuff" like building user management, subscription management, teams, admin, all that, to get to the meat of the business logic, to make sure I had a valid idea. But I still needed all that stuff eventually, so I'd have to lose time later building it all in!

So I decided to just build it all once so I could re-use it, and then I found that others had the same problem and are happy to pay a reasonable amount to have it solved for them, and now it's doing pretty okay for itself.

It did end up taking a lot longer and involving a lot more work than I expected, but I figure that's alright, it just means a more-reliable base to start from each time.

[1] https://nodewood.com

Re: Build your own web framework

#17

Post by jstummbillig » Fri, Jul 29, 2022, 5:04 PM UTC

ilrwbwrkhv wrote: post #15

Kerrick wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only framework of that scale and quality I’ve found in node-land is Adonis [0]. It’s why I chose Adonis 5 for my latest product—it needed to be built in JS or TypeScript but I wanted the “batteries included” feel of Laravel or Rails. [0]: https://adonisjs.com/

Unfortunately they just directly copy laravel line by line when I had last seen it. It doesn't use the strengths of JavaScript as much.

Any specific criticism?

Re: Build your own web framework

#18

Post by ushakov » Fri, Jul 29, 2022, 5:05 PM UTC

koluna wrote: post #13

The more I see these announcements, the more I wonder - what is the appeal of something like Vercel and the likes? On the surface it seems like AWS/GCP/Azure/whichever big cloud provider can replicate literally everything they build within their infrastructure quite easily. Why host your core infra in a BigCo cloud and then the site on Vercel?

Vercel is easy to use and comes with batteries

the primary decision driver here is hype factor

it’s just more fashionable to use Vercel than AWS

much of web development today is like this

Re: Build your own web framework

#19

Post by henning » Fri, Jul 29, 2022, 5:10 PM UTC

This is one of the stupidest, most circuitous ways to get a simple application up and running since the days of the J2EE Pet Shop example.

Re: Build your own web framework

#20

Post by aliqot » Fri, Jul 29, 2022, 5:20 PM UTC

tofuahdude wrote: post #8

moojd wrote: post #5

This is a nice overview of modern front-end development but I'm constantly disappointed with what 'web framework' means in node-land. None of these things are strictly necessary when building a web app but authz/authn, user management, databases, server-side logic vs client-side logic, are pretty much always needed. When I see the phrase 'web framework' these are the things I am interested in seeing and they all seem…

Its pretty hard to trust a lot of the eng content on the web right now; so much blogspam, self promo stuff from frankly underqualified people who are trying to build up a profile to get hired. Somehow I still don't feel that way about StackOverflow. Google and random results though... yikes.

Until now I had not found an eloquent way to express that emotion, but you come close.

Somewhere around the time node got very popular, I started to notice a lot of impeccably branded (is that the right word? trendy maybe?) websites with tutorials that used all the right buzzwords to get me interested. Once I'd step through the content, it'd be very low quality. Despite the smooth lines and round edges, a lot of them were riddled with inaccuracies, assumptions, unabashed spelling and grammar issues, stolen content and lots of candid offtopic observations.. Not to mention they all loaded very slowly.

I used to joke about it mockingly during the early node days that you could judge the trajectory of a project based on the ratio of bytes dedicated to persona and branding vs actual content. Anything passing the 1:2 ratio generally didn't last long.