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ShotSpotter requests to be held in contempt rather than disclose its methodology

chicagoreader.com

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Re: ShotSpotter requests to be held in contempt rather than disclose its methodology

#291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine I made a magic "crime detection" box that called the police each time a crime was "detected". Now imagine all it did was randomly pick a number from 1 to 100 each day and if it were a 1 or a 2, it "detected" a crime, giving probable cause to police to search people near the box. Now imagine I almost exclusively put the boxes in areas where black people without a lot of money lived. You could see this would be…

I would have a problem with that, but I don’t think that’s what’s going on here. My gut feeling is that shotspotter mostly works and is mostly accurate, regardless of what Vice reported. I can imagine how I’d build such a system and I don’t think it would be very complicated. You don’t need any powerful signal processing or AI, this entire idea was feasible 20 years ago. And secondly, I think that if any technology i…

East Palo Alto has shotspotter installed throughout. In summer of 2020 there were several weeks of nightly nearly non stop fireworks. Shotspotter should have been able to help the police pinpoint the locations of these illegal fireworks yet no enforcement actually happened.

Now part of that might be because of the defacto police strike in response to "defund the police", but the noise went on long enough and was heard in nearby wealthy cities enough that actually motivated police forces were pushing to fix the problem and yet shotspotter proved useless.

This leads to the allegation that shotspotter doesn't actually work at all and is just there so when a hothead young cop does something wrong without thinking the police department can, after the fact, get shotspotter to gin up some probable cause.

Re: ShotSpotter requests to be held in contempt rather than disclose its methodology

#292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Shotspotter stores the raw audio so you can just ask for the audio and evaluate for yourself whether a reasonable person would identify that as a gunshot. Either hearing a gunshot is not probable cause to pull someone over (in which case Shotspotter's accuracy and methodology is irrelevant), or hearing a noise that sounds sufficiently like a gunshot is indeed probable cause, in which case you can just listen to the a…

"Someone hearing a gunshot" is not probable cause to pull someone over, just as someone calling in a gunshot to the police is not probable cause to pull someone over.

The article isn't clear. The defense claims that the driver was pulled over solely from the shotspotter alert:

>>Attorneys from the Cook County Public Defender Office, contending the police pulled the man over solely based on a ShotSpotter alert, subpoenaed the company as a third party to find out whether that was the case.

but that seems unlikely -- it would be really expensive and low-yield to pull over everyone in the vicinity of a gunshot. It would be about the same as with regular human ears hearing a bang: go to the source, then pull over cars with evidence further differentiating them as a possible locus of crime.

So probably shotspotter got the cop to that location, where he saw other, more crime-specific evidence. But without more info about this case I couldn't say for sure.

Re: ShotSpotter requests to be held in contempt rather than disclose its methodology

#293
post #231

I did R&D work for an NGO developing a clone of shotspotter and its kind. I spent an enormous amount of time examining all the variants on the market, including the last two decades of military versions from around the world. I documented all of their various accuracies across all the various axes, how many microphones they used, etc. I also went deep into the academic research to learn all the varied algorithms in u…

A piece of advice because you're using a throwaway account: it will be easier for people to believe your claims if you give some kind of inside information about why it doesn't work other than "it just doesn't work"

hi thanks everyone for the feedback.

I really wanted to include references to the research I did, but I was laid off at short notice (ahem, fired) for unspecified reasons, but it might have had to do with not introducing myself with pronouns. Not that I'm against it, I just felt that my freedom included the freedom to not use them. I was let go on a dime and didn't get to collect my research before I left.

But to briefly summarize how these systems specify their accuracy, it's usually with a range of angles. e.g. +/- 10 degrees horizontal, and +- 15 degrees vertical. I just did a quick google search to try to see if anyone has rolled up the various devices like I did, but nothing. However, here's one decent, non-paywalled paper that shows results under very ideal conditions:

http://nms.lcs.mit.edu/papers/ipsn07-girod.pdf

As far as my words: "no device on the market, nor algorithm could figure out that close of a pinpoint", not your words: "why it doesn't work," consider the accuracy in an empty field in the above paper, but then add in several factors, including: 1. reflections, particularly in a dense urban environment, can causing reverberation 2. humidity and temperature fluctuations, particularly as they vary vertically causing acoustic lensing effects. also temperature fluctuations affecting sensor differently from air. e.g. direct sun heating sensor. 3. extremely high dynamic range of the signal. 4. synchronization of detectors, 5. vandalism of detectors 6. accuracy of layout of detectors, 7. characterization of detector beam. 8. detector distance

This is not to say most of these can't be mitigated and improved, but they cost more money and time to work on all of them at the same time. The highly idealized results (open blank field) of a single shot in the above paper gave results +/- 8m in one direction and +/- 5m in the other direction with an average sensor distance of ~60m. So you're seeing about ~15% error in one direction and 6% in the other under ideal conditions and within a very short range. As sound propagates, the PV field evolves exponentially and it blurs and gets quieter and background noises interfere more.

Note that I mentioend the systems generally specify angles (polar coords), but i used rectilinear here bc I have a diff job and don't have the time to convert just for the sake of this convo, but that would be a step I wish I had time for.

If you want even more inside information from that side of the family, I will let you know that parallel construction with pseudo-private information is very real. This member, again trying to relate to me, brags about using social media to figure out many cases, hinting at having advanced access to e.g. facebook. I would go so far as to say that if you want to get away with crime, police will likely defer their attention to the low-hanging fruit of what they can solve with social media.

for those who asked for papers, here some that I vaguely recognize from my research. Most of these are paywalled, and I used my privileged access from a fancy school to get to them:

https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/abstract/document/5680318

https://tj.uettaxila.edu.pk/index.php/technical-journal/arti...

https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/abstract/document/8635092

https://www.spiedigitallibrary.org/conference-proceedings-of...

https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-81-322-1823-4_...

https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/abstract/document/6637700

https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/abstract/document/7098998

https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/8289452

Re: ShotSpotter requests to be held in contempt rather than disclose its methodology

#294
post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A piece of advice because you're using a throwaway account: it will be easier for people to believe your claims if you give some kind of inside information about why it doesn't work other than "it just doesn't work"

hi thanks everyone for the feedback. I really wanted to include references to the research I did, but I was laid off at short notice (ahem, fired) for unspecified reasons, but it might have had to do with not introducing myself with pronouns. Not that I'm against it, I just felt that my freedom included the freedom to not use them. I was let go on a dime and didn't get to collect my research before I left. But to bri…

No post body was provided.

Re: ShotSpotter requests to be held in contempt rather than disclose its methodology

#295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

hi thanks everyone for the feedback. I really wanted to include references to the research I did, but I was laid off at short notice (ahem, fired) for unspecified reasons, but it might have had to do with not introducing myself with pronouns. Not that I'm against it, I just felt that my freedom included the freedom to not use them. I was let go on a dime and didn't get to collect my research before I left. But to bri…

Quoted post unavailable.

Don’t do this. It’s against the site’s guidelines

> Be kind. Don't be snarky. Have curious conversation; don't cross-examine. Please don't fulminate. Please don't sneer, including at the rest of the community.

Re: ShotSpotter requests to be held in contempt rather than disclose its methodology

#296
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s no way they have a legitimate secret sauce though… right? This doesn’t seem like a hard problem to do. Maybe some of this https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independent_component_analys... Plus basic triangulation logic synced across a bunch of microphones?

It's phenomenally hard. Echos, indirect routing (bouncing off buildings), sound waves changing speed as they go through various materials (like a lens). It's a very hard problem. Heck, a truly calibrated surround sound system requires using a microphone to measure the volume in place.

Sorry I meant to the level of accuracy they seem to have achieved. Which seems to be loosely flagging the location of bangs.

Re: ShotSpotter requests to be held in contempt rather than disclose its methodology

#297
post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Someone hearing a gunshot" is not probable cause to pull someone over, just as someone calling in a gunshot to the police is not probable cause to pull someone over.

The article isn't clear. The defense claims that the driver was pulled over solely from the shotspotter alert: >>Attorneys from the Cook County Public Defender Office, contending the police pulled the man over solely based on a ShotSpotter alert, subpoenaed the company as a third party to find out whether that was the case. but that seems unlikely -- it would be really expensive and low-yield to pull over everyone in…

> it would be really expensive and low-yield to pull over everyone in the vicinity of a gunshot

Expensive and low-yield for whom? For the officer who's been directed their by the robot, they're incentivized to do so; it makes them look like they're doing their jobs instead of doing nothing. What's built into the system to penalize them for inconveniencing / endangering a bunch of people with nothing to show for it?

Re: ShotSpotter requests to be held in contempt rather than disclose its methodology

#298
post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article isn't clear. The defense claims that the driver was pulled over solely from the shotspotter alert: >>Attorneys from the Cook County Public Defender Office, contending the police pulled the man over solely based on a ShotSpotter alert, subpoenaed the company as a third party to find out whether that was the case. but that seems unlikely -- it would be really expensive and low-yield to pull over everyone in…

> it would be really expensive and low-yield to pull over everyone in the vicinity of a gunshot Expensive and low-yield for whom? For the officer who's been directed their by the robot, they're incentivized to do so; it makes them look like they're doing their jobs instead of doing nothing. What's built into the system to penalize them for inconveniencing / endangering a bunch of people with nothing to show for it?

Searching a car and catching a criminal always makes them look better than just searching a car. [1]And I’m not sure how your point, if you have one beyond making yourself look smart, relates to the broader issue of whether shotspotter was the only evidence, which was the focus of that comment.

And if you’re economizing on time, I can assure that a better use of it would be to answer the challenge you kept dodging (or “misinterpreting” as a opportunity to show off irrelevant knowledge):

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32259971

At this point I’m just going to assume you have no idea if 7% is a good threshold or not, but still see so problem with shouting it because it sounds good.

[1] In case you forgot, the only reason you were outraged was because the search did catch a criminal that it shouldn’t have. So obviously someone cares about catching a criminal!

Re: ShotSpotter requests to be held in contempt rather than disclose its methodology

#299
post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To create pretexts to search out of thin air. Bad part of oakland? Plenty of random gun shots happening, but no idea where exactly they are coming from - really it’s random spots. But ShotSpotter can give you a high precision (really random) fix on someones house! Wait until it’s someone you want to search, and voila you can.

But if that person was already committing crimes in their house you're not creating crimes out of thin air, just pretext.

The police cannot just randomly search you and then say "Hey look! We found something so it's fine."

Re: ShotSpotter requests to be held in contempt rather than disclose its methodology

#300
post #109
post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

80% of all stops and searches are unfounded. I would not want to live in a community so policed.

I wouldn't want to live in a community with 50,176 gunshot alerts either.

I heard you say that you wouldn't want to live in a community with 200,704 unfounded searches of the citizens.
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