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ShotSpotter requests to be held in contempt rather than disclose its methodology

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Re: ShotSpotter requests to be held in contempt rather than disclose its methodology

#161

Post by trs8080 »

googlryas wrote: post #149
trs8080 wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> OP's comment implied that it is a tool used by the majority(whites) to deploy in minority(black) areas, in order to oppress them. The OP said nothing like this. You're projecting a lot of personal biases onto their comment. But you know that, and are trying to hone in a single example in order to strawman/red-herring valid concerns about the technology and its effects. > It seems you were very distracted that I poi…

> The OP said nothing like this. You're projecting a bad-faith argument onto their comment. But you know that, and are trying to hone in a single example in order to strawman valid concerns about the technology and its effects. Yes, I will admit I am projecting, or rather assuming, bad-faith on their part, or at least sneaky rhetorical tactics. I used to assume good faith, but the past 5 years or so have made me real…

Here's some evidence (including reposting the links that OP provided). Enjoy!

https://www.vice.com/en/article/88nd3z/gunshot-detecting-tec...

https://www.vice.com/en/topic/shotspotter

https://www.vice.com/en/article/qj8xbq/police-are-telling-sh...

https://igchicago.org/2021/08/24/oig-finds-that-shotspotter-...

https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2021/07/its-time-police-stop-u...

https://www.techdirt.com/2022/07/08/judge-tosses-defamation-...

Re: ShotSpotter requests to be held in contempt rather than disclose its methodology

#162

Post by jfoutz »

public_defender wrote: post #17
toomuchtodo wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the likely outcome of this? Can ShotSpotter be compelled to disclose?

They are being ordered to disclose and they are refusing to do it. The article says the lawyer requested to be held in "friendly contempt." I'm pretty sure that doesn't exist. It would probably be more accurate to say that the lawyer conceded the company was in contempt (i.e. they were refusing the order to produce and maybe even conceding it was legal) and was requesting a light sanction. The strategy seems rather b…

My expertise goes as far as drama TV - but uh since this is a corporation, wouldn't the fine be more like average daily revenue /2 ? A night in the pokey seems pretty common, and that's kinda as close as you can get for the company.

Maybe a night in jail isn't all that common though. Sure seems reasonable and effective.

Re: ShotSpotter requests to be held in contempt rather than disclose its methodology

#163

Post by mbesto »

randyrand wrote: post #98

> selectively deployed in minority areas God this phrasing gets so annoying. If white neighborhood residents were being murdered in their streets, you really don’t think they’d put these devices there? Residents would be itching for them! It’s about catching murders - putting these devices in places with the most gun violence. Having police catch murderers is something we all want - rich neighborhoods included - and…

> You think he doesn’t want these devices?

Don't Chinese people want the social credit system too?

You clearly glossed over the more important factor "is used by police to selectively enforce crimes, sometimes also altering the evidence". So, no, your "buddy in Humbolt park" doesn't want this when he gets accused of a crime he didn't commit. He wants actual systematic changes to an impoverished areas - black or white.

> If white neighborhood residents were being murdered in their streets

Hilarious, because this statement displays your inherent bias, which is that you automatically presume white neighborhoods are rich and therefore don't have problems with residents shooting each other!

Re: ShotSpotter requests to be held in contempt rather than disclose its methodology

#164

Post by bushbaba »

jahewson wrote: post #127
daenz wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Top article on that vice link: >In Chicago, a government watchdog says Shotspotter alerts have only led to evidence of gun crime in 9 percent of cases. >fewer than 2 in 10 investigatory stops following ShotSpotter alerts resulted in the recovery of a gun 9% actually seems like a lot? Considering that most criminals don't stick around after illegally discharging a firearm. And 1 in 5 resulting in the recovery in a gun…

No, these numbers are meaningless without a null hypothesis to compare them to. If you stop random people in the monitored areas, at the right time of day, how many guns do you find?

You need cause to investigate someone. So sounds like even if shot spotter is not accurate, it’s still effective. Criminal is a criminal.

Re: ShotSpotter requests to be held in contempt rather than disclose its methodology

#165

Post by shadowgovt »

pxmpxm wrote: post #141
shadowgovt wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reframing is that it have cops reason to go in armed and expecting an active shooter when 93% of the time there was no reason to expect that, and 4 it of 5 times SS reports led to civilians being stopped for no justification.

The reality is in those areas cops are always armed and expecting active shooters. Look up the gunplay stats for places like Back of The Yards in Chicago.

In that case, a technology encouraging them to go out expecting armed resistance when no crime has been committed is an obvious danger for the community.

Re: ShotSpotter requests to be held in contempt rather than disclose its methodology

#166

Post by shadowgovt »

SilasX wrote: post #146
shadowgovt wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reframing is that it have cops reason to go in armed and expecting an active shooter when 93% of the time there was no reason to expect that, and 4 it of 5 times SS reports led to civilians being stopped for no justification.

Honest question: what probability of finding a shooter is the “right” threshold to go in armed and expecting a shooter?

You'd have to ask London police, since they don't. So my Fermi estimate would be somewhere between US and UK rates.

Re: ShotSpotter requests to be held in contempt rather than disclose its methodology

#167

Post by gorbachev »

llanowarelves wrote: post #84
solardev wrote: post #5

(Not the OP) For background, this is the company that supposedly locates gunshot sounds in cities (and sometimes battlefields) by microphone triangulation. It doesn't work all that well and is selectively deployed in minority areas and is used by police to selectively enforce crimes, sometimes also altering the evidence. Vice did a few articles on them and the company tried to sue but had it tossed out. Shady all aro…

If true, selective enforcement is bad. But some minority demographics commit disproportionate (edit: violent) crime per capita so you expect some proportional scaling (more crime = more need for crime detection) if they happen to live in cities/areas where that's the case. (Usually big cities)

That depends entirely on what you consider as crime worth pursuing.

For example, it's well documented wage theft is a much bigger crime in terms of monetary value than all forms of robberies combined. But those criminals don't get nearly the same level of enforcement as robbers do.

Re: ShotSpotter requests to be held in contempt rather than disclose its methodology

#168

Post by SicSemperUranus »

gitfan86 wrote: post #102
alasdair_ wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine I made a magic "crime detection" box that called the police each time a crime was "detected". Now imagine all it did was randomly pick a number from 1 to 100 each day and if it were a 1 or a 2, it "detected" a crime, giving probable cause to police to search people near the box. Now imagine I almost exclusively put the boxes in areas where black people without a lot of money lived. You could see this would be…

Imagine if there were 100 gun murders in a city in one year and you had a magic box that was 100% accurate at detection of location of gun shots within 1 mile and the city could only afford to buy 10 magic boxes. Would you put those magic boxes near where previous gun crimes have been committed or would you put those boxes in places based on the race and sexual orientation and disability status and gender of the peop…

To me this is obviously unethical, but wouldn't this also be obviously unconstitutional in the US? At least if done deliberately? 14th amendment and all that.

Re: ShotSpotter requests to be held in contempt rather than disclose its methodology

#169

Post by hnThrow280 »

I did R&D work for an NGO developing a clone of shotspotter and its kind. I spent an enormous amount of time examining all the variants on the market, including the last two decades of military versions from around the world. I documented all of their various accuracies across all the various axes, how many microphones they used, etc. I also went deep into the academic research to learn all the varied algorithms in use.

When I mentioned it to a family member who is also a police officer, he related that a shotspotter had detected an explosion "right in a guy's backyard." It was clear to me that no device on the market, nor algorithm could figure out that close of a pinpoint. Of course I kept my mouth shut so as to not ruin a holiday. But that was just more undoing of my trust and more indoctrination in one is supposed to remain in a state of denial or cognitive dissonance.

Anyway, just another police technology like polygraphs, DNA, and fingerprints with two stories. One, what it actually does, and two, what police pretend it does.

Re: ShotSpotter requests to be held in contempt rather than disclose its methodology

#170

Post by quickthrower2 »

jfoutz wrote: post #162
public_defender wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are being ordered to disclose and they are refusing to do it. The article says the lawyer requested to be held in "friendly contempt." I'm pretty sure that doesn't exist. It would probably be more accurate to say that the lawyer conceded the company was in contempt (i.e. they were refusing the order to produce and maybe even conceding it was legal) and was requesting a light sanction. The strategy seems rather b…

My expertise goes as far as drama TV - but uh since this is a corporation, wouldn't the fine be more like average daily revenue /2 ? A night in the pokey seems pretty common, and that's kinda as close as you can get for the company. Maybe a night in jail isn't all that common though. Sure seems reasonable and effective.

On TV they need the “getting back at the man” narrative to get viewers juices going.
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